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Old April 27th, 2015, 12:42 PM #21
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I rather people either feel torn or totally against this rule/policy rather than being screwed and feeling powerless over the situation.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 12:47 PM #22
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Maybe I misread something, but what if one party doesn't send their part of the insurance money? It feels like someone could also get conned before they even receive (or don't) their items.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 12:50 PM #23
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Lord Haim Saban wrote: View Post

Maybe I misread something, but what if one party doesn't send their part of the insurance money? It feels like someone could also get conned before they even receive (or don't) their items.
Not sure how this could possibly happen. Both transactions are treated as sales.

Let's say you and I are "trading" $200 worth of Figuarts.
You send me $200, but I don't send it to you. If you don't get any of the figuarts from me within 30 days then you open a PayPal dispute and report the incident to staff.

And because I didn't pay you the $200, you are NOT required to send your figuarts because they were NOT paid for. Report this incident to staff as well because it's suspicious.

Is that clear?
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Old April 27th, 2015, 12:50 PM #24
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Lord Haim Saban wrote: View Post

Maybe I misread something, but what if one party doesn't send their part of the insurance money? It feels like someone could also get conned before they even receive (or don't) their items.
Neither items should be shipped until the "insurance" payment is made.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 12:51 PM #25
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I've oy ever traded with people with 100% positive, with at least 8 or more feedback ratings, or who have a vet dealer tag. Luckily i haven't been screwed in a trade. Do more buying and selling though. While i am not a fan of this new rule, i do think it will help with cutting down on scams.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:11 PM #26
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Decade wrote: View Post

Not sure how this could possibly happen. Both transactions are treated as sales.

Let's say you and I are "trading" $200 worth of Figuarts.
You send me $200, but I don't send it to you. If you don't get any of the figuarts from me within 30 days then you open a PayPal dispute and report the incident to staff.

And because I didn't pay you the $200, you are NOT required to send your figuarts because they were NOT paid for. Report this incident to staff as well because it's suspicious.

Is that clear?
Square. Wasn't overly familiar with Paypal but that makes sense.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:14 PM #27
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And that's all it is. If you do a square up trade, neither party is protected.

In that instance you stated, you're protected, so no matter what, you can always open a dispute.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:14 PM #28
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And here's that recent scamming incident:
http://www.RangerBoard.com/showthread.php?t=173628

Victim: Taichi
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:32 PM #29
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I think the only annoyance I have in this instance is that my paypal uses my creditcard for transactions. Also conversion is a pain for me. But to get the money out of paypal, it has to go back to my bank account (which I constantly have to re-link as it likes to make it the default payment when I don't want to use it) and then I can use it to pay the CC bill.

I will observe the rules if I engage in trades from now on, just wanted to say my piece.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:39 PM #30
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Yeah I'm sure this causes inconveniences for a lot of people. The unfortunate thing is the dishonest scums keeps ruining it for the good people.

I rather you be inconvenienced though than to lose out on something big and potentially suffer a bigger loss.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 01:49 PM #31
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Decade wrote: View Post

Yeah I'm sure this causes inconveniences for a lot of people. The unfortunate thing is the dishonest scums keeps ruining it for the good people.

I rather you be inconvenienced though than to lose out on something big and potentially suffer a bigger loss.
I was not trying to say that it shouldn't be done. I definetely agree that something needs to happen to try to make sure scamming in trades doesn't happen in the future. Just wanted to say my piece.

It's always the few that ruin things, but I'm happy to see some action in this case.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:02 PM #32
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Lord Haim Saban wrote: View Post

Maybe I misread something, but what if one party doesn't send their part of the insurance money? It feels like someone could also get conned before they even receive (or don't) their items.
I honestly think this might be the single worst policy that's been implemented in the Merchandise/Marketplace forum, and the worst since Ray turned control of the board over to Decade. It's really easy for someone with the goal of conning another member to exploit the system that's just been put in place, even if both parties send the "insurance" money. For example, let's say the agreed upon amount is $50.00 dollars, Member A sends it to Member B, and Member B sends it to Member A. At this point both members should ship their items, but Member B can wait for Member A to ship for one PayPal transaction and then immediately cancel the other transaction, and now Member A is out his or her items anyway, and Member B still has the items he didn't ship along with his or her $50 dollars and Member A's items. Member A can't open a dispute because the transaction was cancelled, and he or she is now out the cost of PayPal fees on top of the missing merchandise.

Additionally, this completely kills deals for the people who used trades because they couldn't afford to buy items outright. The entire reason trades were useful was that they allowed people to obtain items they might not otherwise be able to afford by trading something they had for an equal value.

Decade, per your request, I'm going to PM you with an idea to keep trades going while ensuring that members are safe in the process.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:11 PM #33
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I reviewed your proposal - it doesn't work because we're trying to minimize staff involvement and liability - your proposal puts us in the crossfire.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:16 PM #34
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I will forward a few thoughts I have as well
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:24 PM #35
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Keep the ideas coming. We understand the inconvenience this poses - we're open to ideas that can work around it.

But the major things to keep in mind that will negate your ideas is staff involvement; if staff has to verify info, hold money/items first, etc - it's not an idea we want to go with. We appreciate that you guys put that much trust in us, but that's a road we're aiming to avoid.

Thanks.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:49 PM #36
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I think this idea has potential but its also open to exploitation. People will always find a way to abuse the system and defraud others.

Also how would this work, would the trader who's advertised have to make the payment first or the one who's looking to trade with him/her? Let's say i've got a $50 item to trade, if I send the money first then they have money in their account to send straight back to me (minus) fee's so we should only be a couple dollars down on the deal. But what if a high value item is traded I send say $200 and nothing materialises? Yes I could open a paypal dispute and probably win but I think so far as a scammer maybe concerned he'd rather $200 cash in his/her paypal account than a toy/figure/prop that only has limited resale appeal. I think this could potential cause more fraud than prevent it.

My other thought its international items. I'm UK based and have traded with several Americans, all of which have worked out ok. However should we be sending money for good's or services stateside, not only will be have to pay paypal fee's but also an extra cost for currency conversion, but also could get stung for VAT as well as we're 'buying' an american good to be bought into he uk.

Still, despite my cynicism, I still think its good that the MOD's here have come up with a solution, its not a perfect one, but it shows they do care about the board and the members and don't want anybody getting ripped off an I applaud them for that.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:51 PM #37
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Normally this is where I'd come on and say "Oh thats just f'ed up", but due to the incident I saw in Marketplace the other day with the whole MMPR Figuarts thing, I have to believe that this is whats best for the board, and for the users as well.

100% support on this.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 02:55 PM #38
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Teamhuw wrote: View Post

I think this idea has potential but its also open to exploitation. People will always find a way to abuse the system and defraud others.

Also how would this work, would the trader who's advertised have to make the payment first or the one who's looking to trade with him/her? Let's say i've got a $50 item to trade, if I send the money first then they have money in their account to send straight back to me (minus) fee's so we should only be a couple dollars down on the deal. But what if a high value item is traded I send say $200 and nothing materialises? Yes I could open a paypal dispute and probably win but I think so far as a scammer maybe concerned he'd rather $200 cash in his/her paypal account than a toy/figure/prop that only has limited resale appeal. I think this could potential cause more fraud than prevent it.

My other thought its international items. I'm UK based and have traded with several Americans, all of which have worked out ok. However should we be sending money for good's or services stateside, not only will be have to pay paypal fee's but also an extra cost for currency conversion, but also could get stung for VAT as well as we're 'buying' an american good to be bought into he uk.

Still, despite my cynicism, I still think its good that the MOD's here have come up with a solution, its not a perfect one, but it shows they do care about the board and the members and don't want anybody getting ripped off an I applaud them for that.
But that's where PayPal's insurance is suppose to cover something. If users take a loss, it's better than a complete loss. That's the perspective on it.

Look at Taichi's incident - he lost from what I can tell a few hundred dollars worth of merchandise. If he can get back a fraction ($75, $100) I'm sure it would ease the pain.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 03:06 PM #39
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Undoubtedly...

With the situation now... I'm out the shipping, merchandise and there's not absolutely a thing I can do about it. Had I of done it this way, I could have opened a case, and at some level, been protected.

It's good to bounce around ideas to see what sticks. It's the protection of both parties I'm interested in, whatever avenue has to be done to ensure that, then I'm all for it.
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Old April 27th, 2015, 04:59 PM #40
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To me it seems like an extra but necessary step, it may inconvenience some but the extra security in trades is more than worth it.
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