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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:12 AM #61
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AdrenalineRush wrote: View Post

Yeah but he's not going to direct the film, is he?
No, but Producer is actually a more important job, hierarchically speaking, than Director.

The Shi'ar are most likely under the X-Men IP, so they'll likely appear in the Dark Phoenix film.
This is not as guaranteed as you think, because it's dependent on what the scope of the script is and how it goes about introducing cosmic elements into the X-Verse.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:33 AM #62
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

No, but Producer is actually a more important job, hierarchically speaking, than Director.
But Kinberg is also producing the film as well so the person calling dibs on the film is him, not Singer.

This is not as guaranteed as you think, because it's dependent on what the scope of the script is and how it goes about introducing cosmic elements into the X-Verse.
You sure? Because they had a major role in the source material.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:38 AM #63
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^ The point is conceded re: Singer.

We already know that they're reusing, in part, the concept of the Phoenix Force being part of who Jean is and related to her mutant powers, so how big a part the Shi'ar might play in the film is going to depend on how the introduction of cosmic elements fits with that basic idea.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 10:05 AM #64
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

I would like to mention that people would probably be well-served by not assuming that the possibility of Dark Phoenix introducing cosmic elements into the X-Verse automatically means a Guardians of the Galaxy-style "space romp" with the Shi'ar and any other cosmic-type characters that FOX might have the rights to.
It's probably got a higher chance of introducing the Starjammers and Shiar due to Guardians being such a hit, especially after Guardians 2 comes out. If for no other reason than for Fox to spin them off into their own film.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post

No, but Producer is actually a more important job, hierarchically speaking, than Director.
That really depends on the movie and the producer themselves. Most producers are just credits, hierarchically speaking they don't really influence the creative aspects of a film like a director does. Sometimes they do, but those are usually an exception to the rule or are doing so from a financial standpoint or as the voice of the studio. A producer usually doesn't have a more important job than a Director, just a more behind the scenes job keeping the movie going.

Essentially you can physically make a movie without a producer, you can't make one without a director. They have a role, just not as important to the actual physical production part.

AdrenalineRush wrote: View Post

But Kinberg is also producing the film as well so the person calling dibs on the film is him, not Singer.
It's also possible Singer is producer in credit only. Not really on hands. Though as of now that's mostly a rumor mill thing. But who knows, he seemed unhappy and Fox can be fickle.

DigificWriter wrote: View Post

We already know that they're reusing, in part, the concept of the Phoenix Force being part of who Jean is and related to her mutant powers, so how big a part the Shi'ar might play in the film is going to depend on how the introduction of cosmic elements fits with that basic idea.
To be fair, we don't really know much more than at the end of Apocalypse, Jean unleashed an intense level of power from within that had a fiery phoenix aura. It could be doing the "this darkness was inside her all along" story, it could expand on it by saying it's an external force inside her, it's not really clear at all yet.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 10:07 AM #65
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

It's also possible Singer is producer in credit only. Not really on hands. Though as of now that's mostly a rumor mill thing. But who knows, he seemed unhappy and Fox can be fickle.
I don't think Singer's involved at all. He announced he was "taking a break" from the movies after Apocalypse. He hasn't shown up at all in Dark Phoenix credits. That's why Digific retracted the point.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 11:14 AM #66
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

To be fair, we don't really know much more than at the end of Apocalypse, Jean unleashed an intense level of power from within that had a fiery phoenix aura. It could be doing the "this darkness was inside her all along" story, it could expand on it by saying it's an external force inside her, it's not really clear at all yet.
There was a deleted scene from Apocalypse that fully established Jean's darker side, and Kinberg himself has described the Phoenix Force as tying into Jean's innate powers and all but confirming that the Dark Phoenix is and will remain as much about that darkness within her as it is/might be about the cosmic.

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I don't think Singer's involved at all. He announced he was "taking a break" from the movies after Apocalypse. He hasn't shown up at all in Dark Phoenix credits. That's why Digific retracted the point.
I conceded the point on the basis of Kinberg being a producer as well as potentially directing the film. Singer has been confirmed as remaining with the franchise in a production capacity, even though he's not going to return to the director's chair.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:06 PM #67
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

There was a deleted scene from Apocalypse that fully established Jean's darker side, and Kinberg himself has described the Phoenix Force as tying into Jean's innate powers and all but confirming that the Dark Phoenix is and will remain as much about that darkness within her as it is/might be about the cosmic.
A deleted scene is a deleted scene and has no baring on anything unless it becomes undeleted or worked into the story again later.

When did Kinberg claim this scene and the backstory of the Dark Phoenix power is going to be kept? Is there an interview somewhere or an announcement?

I conceded the point on the basis of Kinberg being a producer as well as potentially directing the film. Singer has been confirmed as remaining with the franchise in a production capacity, even though he's not going to return to the director's chair.
Which combined with his "taking a break" statement makes it sound like Singer would more than likely be a Producer Credit only, not actively work the job.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:22 PM #68
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Kinberg hasn't specifically said that the deleted scene I mentioned is going to be relevant, but, as was posted by ranger_scout earlier in the thread, he did have the following to say:
“I definitely would love to take another stab at the Dark Phoenix story,” Kinberg previously told EW. Turner further explained, “The seeds of Phoenix definitely are planted in [Apocalypse]. She can’t control her powers unless she either fully stops them or lets them all loose, and that’s kind of Phoenix. I think in future movies to come we’ll definitely see a bit more of that.”
Even without the deleted scene I mentioned, though, you can tell through Jean's behavior and body language in Apocalypse that she's afraid of unleashing the full extent of her powers and that there's a darkness within her that she doesn't want to confront, so the groundwork is very much laid for them to once again go the route of the Dark Phoenix/Phoenix Force itself being something linked to her powers and not some external force/entity.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:31 PM #69
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

Even without the deleted scene I mentioned, though, you can tell through Jean's behavior and body language in Apocalypse that she's afraid of unleashing the full extent of her powers and that there's a darkness within her that she doesn't want to confront, so the groundwork is very much laid for them to once again go the route of the Dark Phoenix/Phoenix Force itself being something linked to her powers and not some external force/entity.
So it won't be the "split persona" method from X3 then? That was the concern in the first place, that there was some kind of reference or confirmation they wanted to go back to that. Being afraid of her powers growing is something entirely different than that.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 09:05 PM #70
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

So it won't be the "split persona" method from X3 then? That was the concern in the first place, that there was some kind of reference or confirmation they wanted to go back to that. Being afraid of her powers growing is something entirely different than that.
Actually, it's not; it's still the basic idea of Jean having a darkness in her that is tied to her powers and that she's afraid of losing control of, just executed in a slightly different way.

The way they executed things in X3 is more analogous to the concept of Obscurials from the Harry Potter franchise than it is to a true "split personality".
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Old April 24th, 2017, 08:35 AM #71
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

Actually, it's not; it's still the basic idea of Jean having a darkness in her that is tied to her powers and that she's afraid of losing control of, just executed in a slightly different way.

The way they executed things in X3 is more analogous to the concept of Obscurials from the Harry Potter franchise than it is to a true "split personality".
"Having a darkness inside" means something is already inherently dark. Being afraid of your powers is just being afraid, it doesn't have to be inherently dark just scary.

If its not a split persona, it's already fairly different from X3. Especially since Jean wasn't afraid of her powers at all in that trilogy, she had an actual dark persona at work. Young Jean just being afraid of what she can do is just that, a fear of the unknown, not a fear of this dark persona waiting inside her.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 08:38 AM #72
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^ You're drawing a distinction that isn't there based on Sophie Turner's portrayal of Jean in Apocalypse, where she does behave as if there's a darkness that is inside her tied to her her powers that is causing her to hold back on harnessing them.

I would also point out that the Dark Phoenix "split personality" was created by Charles Xavier putting mental blocks on her in order to curtail her abilities out of his own fears; it wasn't something that was inherent in her before he started meddling and keeping her powers in check, so the only real change from the old timeline to the new is that there's a darkness in Jean that wasn't there prior to Charles' meddling in the original timeline.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 11:01 AM #73
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

^ You're drawing a distinction that isn't there based on Sophie Turner's portrayal of Jean in Apocalypse, where she does behave as if there's a darkness that is inside her tied to her her powers that is causing her to hold back on harnessing them.
Darkness is vague and subjective here though. She's not acting like there's anything inherent dark or evil about her powers, just scary because they are strong and she may not be able to control them. That's not a darkness, that's just a fear.

I would also point out that the Dark Phoenix "split personality" was created by Charles Xavier putting mental blocks on her in order to curtail her abilities out of his own fears; it wasn't something that was inherent in her before he started meddling and keeping her powers in check, so the only real change from the old timeline to the new is that there's a darkness in Jean that wasn't there prior to Charles' meddling in the original timeline.
Nothing about the prologue for Jean works in either timeline thanks to First Class and the bits of history about DOFP before Wolverine shows up we get.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 11:11 AM #74
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Darkness is vague and subjective here though. She's not acting like there's anything inherent dark or evil about her powers, just scary because they are strong and she may not be able to control them. That's not a darkness, that's just a fear.
I disagree, and Kinberg's comments support my read of the situation.


Nothing about the prologue for Jean works in either timeline thanks to First Class and the bits of history about DOFP before Wolverine shows up we get.
Huh? For most of its runtime, DoFP relies heavily on - and reaffirms - things we saw in the first X-Trilogy, including The Last Stand, and even explicitly links TLS' take on the Dark Phoenix story to young Xavier by making it one of the things that old Xavier communicates to his younger self through the mind link facilitated by Logan. It also heavily informs young Xavier's interactions with and behavior towards Jean in Apocalypse.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 11:38 AM #75
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

I disagree, and Kinberg's comments support my read of the situation.
He says nothing about a darkness but that she's afraid of her powers and that's where the seeds of the story start.

A darkness and a fear are not the same thing.

Huh? For most of its runtime, DoFP relies heavily on - and reaffirms - things we saw in the first X-Trilogy, including The Last Stand, and even explicitly links TLS' take on the Dark Phoenix story to young Xavier by making it one of the things that old Xavier communicates to his younger self through the mind link facilitated by Logan. It also heavily informs young Xavier's interactions with and behavior towards Jean in Apocalypse.
Nothing about Jean even comes up in DOFP. The moment Xavier meets Xavier is met with a generic "students at school" shot. No one in particular shows up and its all about teaching young Xavier to hope again. When does X3's events show up in that vision? When does Xavier communicate anything else about his future to his past self other than "Hope Again"? When does he reference DOFP and being influenced about Jean in Apocalypse? Does he even really talk to Jean until the end of the movie in Apocalypse?

Mostly though, I just meant the prologue in X3 couldn't have happened in the first class timeline to begin with as it contradicts an already enemies Xavier and Magneto, plus a bald, but walking Xavier when he was hairy and powerless at the time.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 11:49 AM #76
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

He says nothing about a darkness but that she's afraid of her powers and that's where the seeds of the story start.

A darkness and a fear are not the same thing.
Let's agree to disagree.


Nothing about Jean even comes up in DOFP. The moment Xavier meets Xavier is met with a generic "students at school" shot. No one in particular shows up and its all about teaching young Xavier to hope again. When does X3's events show up in that vision? When does Xavier communicate anything else about his future to his past self other than "Hope Again"? When does he reference DOFP and being influenced about Jean in Apocalypse? Does he even really talk to Jean until the end of the movie in Apocalypse?
I may be conflating information from producers with information actually conveyed within the film.

Mostly though, I just meant the prologue in X3 couldn't have happened in the first class timeline to begin with as it contradicts an already enemies Xavier and Magneto, plus a bald, but walking Xavier when he was hairy and powerless at the time.
The prologue of TLS occurs in the late 80s, and all that's required to set it up is for Erik's name to be cleared and for he and Xavier to briefly reconcile.

The Xavier walking thing is also explained/made understandable by the revelation that Hank made a serum that allowed Charles to walk again, and it is not a great stretch to believe that the development of the serum eventually got to a point where Hank eliminated the side effect of Charles being rendered powerless while taking it.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 12:04 PM #77
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If you have to come up with an entire new movie's worth of storyline just to make a prologue work, it may just have been contradicted by the movies in the first place.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 12:10 PM #78
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^ Except we know that DoFP doesn't actually contradict anything established in the other films, nor does it actually invalidate those films... contrary to what people like to think.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 12:48 PM #79
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DigificWriter wrote: View Post

^ Except we know that DoFP doesn't actually contradict anything established in the other films, nor does it actually invalidate those films... contrary to what people like to think.
It further paints a picture of contradiction, just as First Class did. Without something else officially coming along to paint the "in the original timeline, Eric and Xavier worked it out to go visit a young Jean" picture, it's contradicted as is. It needs something else to undo the existing contradiction and since we won't get that, it's just going to remain contradicted as presented so far.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 01:32 PM #80
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What I'm kind of confused about is that this Jean is still supposed to be Jean from the original trilogy which just makes a complete mess of things when you try to redo storyline you already did. There's literally no reason for Jean in Apocalypse to be different than Flashback Jean in X3.
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