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Old December 30th, 2009, 11:12 PM #81
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Wes Janson wrote: View Post

If you really want to get down into the nitty gritty, technically, it's impossible to travel into the past history of your particular universe. The second you take the trip back in time, you're transported to an alternate branch in the multiverse.
Bah, that excuse is only there to keep peoples heads from exploding. I tried explaining the multiverse theory to an ex once, she had a headache the next day, when I asked why she said "It's because of that thing you were trying to explain last night."
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Old December 30th, 2009, 11:27 PM #82
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I like to subscribe to the idea of "temporal inertia" (I'm sure there's a better term somewhere) when it comes to sci-fi stories--when something in the timeline is changed, "something" tries to set things as "right" as possible. Alternatively, you can look at it as "the branching timeline resulting from the time-traveling incident has a tendency to hew as closely as possible to the original timeline." In other words, the Butterfly Effect is minimized. Some of this may be because of active involvement by the time-traveling characters (e.g., Marty McFly, Spock Prime), but the rest of this "self-correcting" mechanism operates through chance and coincidence. So even though the attack on the Kelvin made a lot of impact on the Trek timeline, the universe's "self-correction" mechanism ultimately brought the crew together in a familiar configuration, though things are different.
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Old December 30th, 2009, 11:54 PM #83
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To clarify, I wasn't making my own assumptions. Conceptually, quantum physics mandates the existence of a nearly infinite set of parallel universes. Why? The simplest explanation is this:

Quantum physics says that subatomic particles exist in all states at all times (until observed). The universe, during the Big Bang, was at one point, smaller than the size of an electron. Since particles of that size must exist in all states simultaneously, the universe, by token, must also exist in all states simultaneously.

What constitutes a "state" in our universe? Imagine yourself walking down the street, and at a very quick glance, you see a penny on the ground. You feel compelled to pick it up, so you do just that.

Or imagine walking that same street, and a stray neutrino nicks one of your neurons, causing you to blink involuntarily. Because you blinked, you didn't notice the penny.

A "state" would constitute either line of continuity. But because of the nature of the universe and our understanding of quantum physics, both states exist at the same time. However, they're perceived (or "observed") in a different plane of existence.

Each decision you make, each event that occurs in our lives leads us down the branching universe one knot at a time. There's a universe out there that is identical in every way to this one, only you don't exist. There's a universe in which [the show] Power Rangers never existed. There's another universe in which the flag of Turkey is a silhouette of Tommy's 90's hair. There's even a universe where Snoops is the president of the United Nations of Pudding.

And they're all existing in the same exact space that you're occupying.

This conveniently also fixes the grandfather paradox; meaning if you were to go back into the past, even if you were to kill your own grandfather, you would still continue to exist -- because you essentially affected the history of an alternate universe. And you would never be able to find your way back, since each entry into another universe leads you down another direction in a nearly infinite path.

So basically, Back to the Future had it all wrong.

And this concept easily explains away why the Enterprise of the era looks so different from that of Spock Prime's. It wasn't because of some kind of historical significance of the Kelvin. It's because it's a completely different universe, with altered starship and costume designs.

....And all ships are powered by radioactive beer...
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Old December 31st, 2009, 12:02 AM #84
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You're ignoring the "quantum lock" theory.

Going back in time and changing something then going back to the "Future" (Actually returning to your present) would deposit you in the same exact universe you originally left as the signature your own atoms carry would lock in on the universe with the same signature.

Like I said though all of this theory is just that until it can be tested properly and even when the tech exists to do so it will likely NEVER happen as everyone would be too afraid to try.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 12:11 AM #85
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*makes a face*

I guess I'm ignoring "quantum lock" because it is -- at least at the moment -- a science fiction macguffin. I've never heard of it (which doesn't say much, but still...)

I was being completely serious, as the multiverse theory is supported by real quantum mathematics, and it's the talk of the town among physicists and cosmologists.

And I have no doubt that eventually, time travel will be attempted. Time travel is possible, so it probably already has been tried by another more advanced civilization somewhere in the etherium. But as we currently understand it, not in the ways most science fiction programs depict it. Right now, the only method we can conceive of time travel occurring under real-world physics is to link two man-made wormholes, and influencing one of them with the tidal power of a black hole. You could then, theoretically, "gate" between both temporal existences, though because of multiversal rules, neither continuity will affect the other.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 12:14 AM #86
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There was this comment that had no source but I found interesting. Presumably the woman we saw sucked out of the Kelvin was a key factor in the conceptualization of the Enterprise.

With her gone, someone else became in charge of the Enterprise construction and ultimately changed things.

I thought this was interesting, visuals!
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=93046
How do you think "Enterprise" was affected by the movie?


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Old December 31st, 2009, 12:17 AM #87
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Yeah, I read about that "theory". I still think there was nothing special about that woman other than the fact that she had a very strong man-handed grip.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 12:21 AM #88
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Oh, and one last comment on this "quantum lock" business -- every universal state in the multiverse would have an identical "quantum signature", as the multiverse is governed by the same laws of physics. So conceptually, there's really no such thing as a quantum signature.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 04:21 AM #89
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So, what were you guys' thoughts on the TNG episode "Parallels"? All the talk about alternate universes and quantum signature made me think of it.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 05:27 AM #90
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All this real science makes my ignorant head hurt. I prefer to just let the story tell me what's "real" and not worry about it as long as the show's own internal fictional logic isn't too badly compromised.

If the show wants to tell me that going back in time can actually change the future of the time traveler's own timeline, then I'm cool with that. In fact, I prefer it because it's more meaningful in a lot of cases, from a dramatic standpoint. Real-world logic be damned.

Of course, at this point, Star Trek has approached time travel in all KINDS of different ways over the years.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 01:44 PM #91
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You mean... You don't want to hear how badly this movie butchered the basic properties of black holes?
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Old December 31st, 2009, 03:13 PM #92
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Gold Samurai wrote: View Post

How do you think "Enterprise" was affected by the movie?
By definition, nothing at all, since everything in Enterprise had long since already happened before the timeline split.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 03:19 PM #93
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Wes Janson wrote: View Post

You mean... You don't want to hear how badly this movie butchered the basic properties of black holes?
Your average Trek episode butchers most of the laws of physics before the first commercial break.

Hodges: Sneer if you wish, but science fiction has been the inspiration for many great technilogical breakthroughs.
Mandy: I'm not knockin' it. I love sci-fi. You know, especially that talking horse show, that was one of my favorites.
Hodges: Mr. Ed?
Mandy: Yeah.
Hodges: Yeah, that's not science fiction.
Mandy: Sure it is. It involves an alternate universe in which a horse evolves a larynx.
Hodges: That's fantasy.
Mandy: No, fantasy is anything that travels faster than the speed of light, Hodges. Which is why, if Albert Einstein were alive, he'd slap your face


From the CSI episode - "A Space Oddity"
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Old December 31st, 2009, 03:40 PM #94
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Brilliant.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 02:34 PM #95
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mikejonas wrote: View Post

I like to subscribe to the idea of "temporal inertia" (I'm sure there's a better term somewhere) when it comes to sci-fi stories--when something in the timeline is changed, "something" tries to set things as "right" as possible. Alternatively, you can look at it as "the branching timeline resulting from the time-traveling incident has a tendency to hew as closely as possible to the original timeline." In other words, the Butterfly Effect is minimized. Some of this may be because of active involvement by the time-traveling characters (e.g., Marty McFly, Spock Prime), but the rest of this "self-correcting" mechanism operates through chance and coincidence. So even though the attack on the Kelvin made a lot of impact on the Trek timeline, the universe's "self-correction" mechanism ultimately brought the crew together in a familiar configuration, though things are different.
Sam Beckett?
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 02:41 PM #96
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mikejonas wrote: View Post

I like to subscribe to the idea of "temporal inertia" (I'm sure there's a better term somewhere) when it comes to sci-fi stories--when something in the timeline is changed, "something" tries to set things as "right" as possible. Alternatively, you can look at it as "the branching timeline resulting from the time-traveling incident has a tendency to hew as closely as possible to the original timeline." In other words, the Butterfly Effect is minimized. Some of this may be because of active involvement by the time-traveling characters (e.g., Marty McFly, Spock Prime), but the rest of this "self-correcting" mechanism operates through chance and coincidence. So even though the attack on the Kelvin made a lot of impact on the Trek timeline, the universe's "self-correction" mechanism ultimately brought the crew together in a familiar configuration, though things are different.

"All irregularities will be handled by the forces controlling each dimension. Transuranic, heavy elements may not be used where there is life. Medium atomic weights are available: Gold, Lead, Copper, Jet, Diamond, Radium, Sapphire, Silver and Steel.

Sapphire and Steel have been assigned."
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 02:51 PM #97
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[QUOTE=Gold Samurai;3313854]There was this comment that had no source but I found interesting. Presumably the woman we saw sucked out of the Kelvin was a key factor in the conceptualization of the Enterprise.

Data: Not "Sucked out," "Blown out."
lol.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 03:00 PM #98
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"How do you think "Enterprise" was affected by the movie?" - Gold Samurai

I personally believe that due to Abram's movie that even Enterprise is kinda iffy.

Enterprise was riddled with forces from the future messing with the past because of the temporal cold war.
But what if the reasons for their messing with time, joining the temporal cold war, had a basis in what the original Kirk and crew did during that 5 year mission.
But since those events didn't happen now, it is very possible that some of the forces from the future never had a reason to join the cold war. So they never went back and messed with Enterprise's time. This then changes what would have happened even during Enterprise.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 03:43 PM #99
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DrGreenEvil wrote: View Post

"How do you think "Enterprise" was affected by the movie?" - Gold Samurai

I personally believe that due to Abram's movie that even Enterprise is kinda iffy.

Enterprise was riddled with forces from the future messing with the past because of the temporal cold war.
But what if the reasons for their messing with time, joining the temporal cold war, had a basis in what the original Kirk and crew did during that 5 year mission.
But since those events didn't happen now, it is very possible that some of the forces from the future never had a reason to join the cold war. So they never went back and messed with Enterprise's time. This then changes what would have happened even during Enterprise.
But up until the moment of temporal schism, events in history (like Enterprise) had happened, and Spock, who is from the other side of the schism, didn't vanish, so I see no reason to believe that anything from the Temporal cold war had happened any differently.

"Great big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff"
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 04:04 PM #100
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So going on a slight tangent - Star Trek Online - anyone getting into it when it comes out?
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