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Old January 20th, 2019, 01:48 AM #641
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That's not news. We know most of parliament are Remainers.
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Old January 20th, 2019, 07:26 AM #642
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Spoony Spoonerson wrote: View Post

I read before I voted to leave, I read a hell of a lot. The common misconception people seemed to make about the Brexit vote is that it was a choice between "The Status Quo" or "Scary Unknown Territory", and that's not true at all.
No, that's exactly what it was. Remain meant keeping the status quo, leave meant ditching the status quo but no one had any idea for what exactly because everyone had different ideas about what leave would mean for the UK.

The real choice was between "More European Intergration" or "Less European Intergration".
That's what you interpreted the choice to be but it wasn‘t or it would have said so on the ballot. The UK already had less european integration while being in the EU by not being part of the monetary union or the Schengen opt-out for example and as an influential member it could have continued to get opt-outs, as a member it could also simply veto a lot of stuff.

The UK at large still has delusions of grandeur, thinking it will be able to dictate terms in negotiations when in reality the UK is quite small and not that important on its own and it will learn that the hard way.
I love when some brits point at their strong economy as if it isn't largely propped up by being part of the EU and the common market.
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Old January 21st, 2019, 04:13 AM #643
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Salted Pepper wrote: View Post

No, that's exactly what it was. Remain meant keeping the status quo, leave meant ditching the status quo but no one had any idea for what exactly because everyone had different ideas about what leave would mean for the UK.
Remain meant "to Remain in a political union that is constantly expanding and reaching further", that's not a status quo. That's a choice of staying on the bus, even though you don't know where it's heading.

That's what you interpreted the choice to be but it wasn‘t or it would have said so on the ballot. The UK already had less european integration while being in the EU by not being part of the monetary union or the Schengen opt-out for example and as an influential member it could have continued to get opt-outs, as a member it could also simply veto a lot of stuff.

The UK at large still has delusions of grandeur, thinking it will be able to dictate terms in negotiations when in reality the UK is quite small and not that important on its own and it will learn that the hard way.
I love when some brits point at their strong economy as if it isn't largely propped up by being part of the EU and the common market.
I really don't get the argument that Leave voters are "deluded", or prefer isolation. Nobody on the leave side was ever talking of isolation, but there's nowhere else in the world that if you want to trade with a country, you have to accept their court of justice as supreme, their parliament, their flag, their rules. New Zealand is not about to join Australia, and we don't go "Oh, look at those bigoted Australo-Skeptics! When are they going to realise they're a tiny island clinging to outdated notions of sovereignty?"

Over the last 10 years, China's economy has doubled in size, India's economy has doubled, Ethopia, but the Eurozone's economy was the same size in 2016 as it was in 2006. Every continent on the planet has grown economically over the last 10 years... with the exception of Antarctica and The European Union. Paying to remain a member of the world's only stagnant customs union seems ridiculous to me when there's so much of the developing world we could be doing business with. Do remember, in 2003 a lot of experts and global leaders were telling us that if we didn't join the Euro currency, we were practically throwing our economy away. How wrong they were.

The European Union, and the Remain side, did a sterling job of branding the EU as this utopia of freedom and love and shiny things, and the Leave side as evil old men still yearning for the days of The British Empire. It was very impressive, but largely incorrect. People chide Britain for voting to leave, but I ask, if the question was on the table for any country who's not a member, would you vote to join? Would you, knowing what you know, give up the supremacy of your courts, your banks, your military, over to an unelected foreign power?
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Old January 21st, 2019, 08:11 AM #644
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Spoony Spoonerson wrote: View Post

I'm going to keep this civil, but it's "bad-form" to call people "stupid" for not voting for the way you did (or would have, I'm not sure which country you live in) in a political thread that's being generously kept open on a board which discourages political talk.
I'm from the UK, and I called Boris Johnson stupid for spearheading to Leave but was not upto the task once he got what he wanted.

I tried to find the article I read shortly after the vote last year, but it suggested that many people simply voted Leave without understanding what that actually meant, and therefore regretted their decision. It is nothing to do with calling people stupid for not voting the way I did, it's the fact they did not understand what they were voting for. Also, your comment assumes I voted the opposite way to what I was speaking about. I actually voted to Leave, but I understood what that meant, I did not mindless jump on a bangwagon.
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Old January 21st, 2019, 08:25 AM #645
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Aka[]V[]etal []_ion wrote: View Post

I tried to find the article I read shortly after the vote last year, but it suggested that many people simply voted Leave without understanding what that actually meant, and therefore regretted their decision.
That was an extremely popular story, especially in the United States where several media outlets, including NPR, reported After Brexit Vote, Britain Asks Google: 'What Is The EU?'". It has, however, been debunked as misleading and not directly true.

I posted it a few pages back in this thread, but there was a study by the LSE (among others) which showed that voters spent a lot of time considering their vote.

It's also worth nothing that since the referendum polling hasn't shown a major change from the result. After May announced her deal, there was a slight bump up for remain. But that's why parliament isn't rushing for a second referendum, because it's unlikely to change anything, at least not in a meaningful way.

Last edited by big smile; January 21st, 2019 at 08:35 AM.
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Old January 21st, 2019, 08:31 AM #646
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big smile wrote: View Post

~SNIP~.
That isn't the article I was referring to, this was from an actual Newspaper but I cannot locate it. I'll keep looking but I stand by my point.
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Old January 21st, 2019, 09:36 AM #647
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Spoony Spoonerson wrote: View Post

Remain meant "to Remain in a political union that is constantly expanding and reaching further", that's not a status quo. That's a choice of staying on the bus, even though you don't know where it's heading.



I really don't get the argument that Leave voters are "deluded", or prefer isolation. Nobody on the leave side was ever talking of isolation, but there's nowhere else in the world that if you want to trade with a country, you have to accept their court of justice as supreme, their parliament, their flag, their rules. New Zealand is not about to join Australia, and we don't go "Oh, look at those bigoted Australo-Skeptics! When are they going to realise they're a tiny island clinging to outdated notions of sovereignty?"

Over the last 10 years, China's economy has doubled in size, India's economy has doubled, Ethopia, but the Eurozone's economy was the same size in 2016 as it was in 2006. Every continent on the planet has grown economically over the last 10 years... with the exception of Antarctica and The European Union. Paying to remain a member of the world's only stagnant customs union seems ridiculous to me when there's so much of the developing world we could be doing business with. Do remember, in 2003 a lot of experts and global leaders were telling us that if we didn't join the Euro currency, we were practically throwing our economy away. How wrong they were.

The European Union, and the Remain side, did a sterling job of branding the EU as this utopia of freedom and love and shiny things, and the Leave side as evil old men still yearning for the days of The British Empire. It was very impressive, but largely incorrect. People chide Britain for voting to leave, but I ask, if the question was on the table for any country who's not a member, would you vote to join? Would you, knowing what you know, give up the supremacy of your courts, your banks, your military, over to an unelected foreign power?
Kind of, except that this bus was partly organised by Britain, and Britain had a veto over the color of it, and what music was played on the radio, and what drivethru everyone was going to get.

While Britain cant strictly say for sure where the bus is going, it was sitting up at the front, holding the map, and getting a pretty strong final say in the directions given to the driver.

Also, we do elect MEPs... it's (peculiarly enough) how Nigel Farage makes his official moneys (for the moment).
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Old January 21st, 2019, 09:45 AM #648
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Aka[]V[]etal []_ion wrote: View Post

I'm from the UK, and I called Boris Johnson stupid for spearheading to Leave but was not upto the task once he got what he wanted.

I tried to find the article I read shortly after the vote last year, but it suggested that many people simply voted Leave without understanding what that actually meant, and therefore regretted their decision. It is nothing to do with calling people stupid for not voting the way I did, it's the fact they did not understand what they were voting for. Also, your comment assumes I voted the opposite way to what I was speaking about. I actually voted to Leave, but I understood what that meant, I did not mindless jump on a bangwagon.
It is a very broad assumption that 17 million people voted for Leave and didn't know what it meant. I'm sure some did, maybe, some people vote for things without really looking into it. I've not seen Leave voters as "regretful" in the 2 years since; they don't regret voting, they regret that the process of leaving the EU is being handled, and handled badly, by people who openly voted to Remain. The term "Brexit" is fairly open ended in it's possibilities, whether it's May's Deal (Remain in all but name), a Canada Style Agreement, The Norway Model, or a No Deal situation. There's a number of routes it could take, but either way, the people voted knowing they wanted Britain to leave the EU.

As far as I can tell, the deal Canada has with the EU is the best of both worlds, getting to trade with the EU within the single market, isn't subject to EU laws, and doesn't pay a penny to the EU. It would satisfy both sides, as long as the status of EU nationals living in the UK is cleared up. According to reports, this offer was "On The Table" from Donald Tusk, but for some reason Theresa May wanted to go ahead with her own arrangement.
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Old January 24th, 2019, 08:49 AM #649
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Former SNP leader Alex Salmond formerly charged with 14 accounts of rape, breach of the peace, and indecent assault

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46984747
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Old January 29th, 2019, 01:41 PM #650
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MPs have rejected a no-deal Brexit. Although it's not legally binding.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47050665

MPs have voted to rule out the UK leaving the EU without a deal.

Tory MP Caroline Spelman and Labour MP Jack Dromey tabled the amendment to try to prevent a no deal Brexit, and won the support of MPs by eight votes.

But the vote is not legally binding - meaning it showed the view of the House, but did not change the exit date of 29 March.

Mrs May said she plans to re-open negotiations in Brussels with an "emphatic message" of what MPs want.

MPs earlier voted down an amendment from Labour's Yvette Cooper to delay Brexit in order to prevent a no deal, that could have been legally binding, by 321 votes to 298.

The prime minister has urged MPs to back a different amendment that would propose "alternative arrangements" to the controversial Irish backstop plan, saying it would give her a "mandate" to secure a "legally binding change" in the EU.

MPs are now voting on that amendment - put forward by Tory MP Sir Graham Brady.

The backstop is is the insurance policy in Mrs May's plan to prevent checks on goods and people returning to the Northern Ireland border, which some MPs fear could leave the UK tied to the EU's rules indefinitely.

But the EU has said it will not change the legal text agreed with the UK PM.
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Old January 30th, 2019, 03:33 AM #651
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DekaMax wrote: View Post

MPs have rejected a no-deal Brexit. Although it's not legally binding.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47050665
Even if it were "legally binding" it wouldn't mean anything, the UK cannot rule out no deal that's just not how it works. The only way to avoid no deal is to either agree to the deal on the table or not to leave at all.

More wasting time with meaningless amendmends. Like a smart gentlemen with a bucket on his head once predicted, it's a shitshow.
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Old January 30th, 2019, 03:50 AM #652
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Salted Pepper wrote: View Post

More wasting time with meaningless amendmends. Like a smart gentlemen with a bucket on his head once predicted, it's a shitshow.
You guys have your own version of Vermin Supreme?

That's kind of awesome.
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Old January 30th, 2019, 03:59 AM #653
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Jerry wrote: View Post

You guys have your own version of Vermin Supreme?

That's kind of awesome.


Lord Buckethead, he actually ran against Theresa May in the last UK election and is a speaker of truth.

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Old January 30th, 2019, 04:16 AM #654
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Salted Pepper wrote: View Post

Lord Buckethead, he actually ran against Theresa May in the last UK election and is a speaker of truth.
That is hilariously awesome.

I'm still partial to Vermin. He promised ponies for all Americans and was going to defeat ISIS with time travel.

I do admit the bucket is a bit more fashionable than a boot though.
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Old January 30th, 2019, 04:17 AM #655
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Salted Pepper wrote: View Post

https://abload.de/img/91f9459e-a3b0-49a1-bfl4kl5.png

Lord Buckethead, he actually ran against Theresa May in the last UK election and is a speaker of truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJzW_gFoXR0
I fucking love Lord Buckethead! I first heard of him from Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. Totally amazing, I wish America had politicians like this.



Edit: Holy shit, I just found out about Vermin Supreme. This guy is comedy gold!

Last edited by TZKBTJ; January 30th, 2019 at 04:20 AM. Reason: Vermin Supreme
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Old January 30th, 2019, 10:01 AM #656
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TZKBTJ wrote: View Post

I fucking love Lord Buckethead! I first heard of him from Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. Totally amazing, I wish America had politicians like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eQ0s4SBefU

Edit: Holy shit, I just found out about Vermin Supreme. This guy is comedy gold!
This is still one of my favorite Youtube videos, almost seven years later.
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Old February 14th, 2019, 02:14 PM #657
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Another commons defeat for May, although the vote has no legal force so she doesn't have to change the strategy if she doesn't want to

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47245992
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Old February 15th, 2019, 06:43 PM #658
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Cameron Samurai wrote: View Post

she doesn't have to change the strategy if she doesn't want to
She does refer to herself as being a 'bloody difficult woman', perhaps to her own detriment.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 03:47 PM #659
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Seven Labour MPs have resigned.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902

Seven MPs have resigned from the Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's approach to Brexit and anti-Semitism.

They are: Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey.

Ms Berger said Labour had become institutionally anti-Semitic and she was "embarrassed and ashamed" to stay.

Mr Corbyn said he was "disappointed" the MPs had felt unable to continue working for the policies that "inspired millions" at the 2017 election.

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said the "honourable thing for them to do" would be to stand down as MPs and seek to return to Parliament in by-elections.
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Old February 20th, 2019, 04:48 AM #660
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Some Conservatives have defected now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47306022

Three Tory MPs have resigned from the party to join an independent group, set up by former Labour MPs.

Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen wrote a joint letter to Theresa May to confirm their departure.

The PM said she was "saddened", but her party would "always offer... decent, moderate and patriotic politics".

The three said Brexit had "redefined the Conservative Party - undoing all the efforts to modernise it" and there had been a "shift to the right".

The pro-Remain trio will join the new Independent Group - made up of eight Labour MPs who resigned from their party over its handling of Brexit and anti-Semitism.

The group now has more MPs in Parliament than the Democratic Unionist Party and equals the number of Liberal Democrats.
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