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Old October 15th, 2013, 05:20 AM #141
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Kamen Rider W x OOO (Directors Cut): It's been a couple days (and I didn't get to do OOO 13-14 yet due to the utter chaos of the weekend), but I did see the movies and should at least give an opinion.

OOO: Nobunaga's Ambition: So...let me get this straight? Suddenly Kougami and Maki are playing with life in creating their own Cell Medal Homoculi!? And the first they make...is the greediest man in Japanese history!? And...how the heck is Maki creating Core Medals as well!? And where the heck did that Yummy get a Gai...nm, that's the other movie.

I assume I probably missed something due to watching this movie after Eiji got Sagohzo but there are just too many things going on and too many problems. While the stuff with the characters we know and love is still great, its just weird that instead of getting something to enhance the world (see "Begins Night"...or heck, the W movie after this), we get some weird encounter between the cast and Oda Nobunaga, created by Kougami and Maki...because. Nobunaga just seemed to go through a lot of personality changes as the story goes on but I assume they more to do with the development of everything: he starts as just a silent monster bullying the Kougami people; then he becomes a nice guy who befriends Eiji and even shares underwear with him. (if Eiji shares underwear with you, you know you're on the up and up) But then Nobunaga's ambition starts to kick in as he decides to conquer the modern world just as he had tried to conquer Japan in the past. This was probably the best element of the movie and probably plays the most on this series' strengths: even though Nobunaga's greed never went away, he realizes (when he's not a monster rampaging after the old clans) that the only way to "conquer" modern society is to play by its rules, thereby going into big business. Of course his meteoric rise is a bit cartoonish (though considering OOO's main writer did Ryuki and Shinkenger, it does make sense to be a bit like this) but for the sake of the plot I sort of ignore it. Though it gets interesting that his desires seem to even reach for people but get conflicting due to Hina's ballerina friend: his "demonic" side wants to kill her due to his past, but his modern version wants to win her as property just as he tries to win over everything else. Ultimately Eiji returns to teach him a bit about real happiness, which I did like...but after that it sort of falls apart: Nobunaga's collapse feels a bit too much like "Flowers for Algernon", and Maki just randomly reappears when he is close to defeat to use Core Medals to mutate him into a monster...leading to a bizarre final battle where he and Sagohzo fights while we get images of the ballerina dancing. The lessons were interesting but the movie wasn't that good...though it was also weird to see that the ancient Homoculi ends up being the first to use the "Birth System", which in itself is a tad strange (being based on capsule machines) but at least its random weapon access makes way more sense then the way it was done in Ryuki. (where it was utterly ridiculous how they don't even look at the cards and always pull what they need; at least with Birth you can say that a capsule machine can give you a random item every time you play) Oh and before I forget: Yellow Racer has a great cameo as one of Eiji's paycheck-mooching friends...

W: Message to W: Have I missed the W cast and their crazy yet heartfelt antics! When this movie starts I can immediately tell the difference in style, using the character interactions and quirky behavior for the comedy instead of the weirdness of the OOO universe. Yet even with Shotaro and Philip around, the movie is more about Akiko and her father Soukichi, in particular the revelation as to how Kamen Rider Skull first emerged and why Akiko's father never met up with her even up through his death. It was great that we got an investigation from ten years prior, using the already set up universe, characters we've encountered in the series (the mask seller is the one from the Beast/Zone story; the little girl who is with Shotaro is T-Rex Dopant in the future) and even a bit of classic KR lore! (the aspect that the first two Dopants are Spider and Bat) Soukichi has a bit of quirkiness to him even with his sadness but has an astute mind and the ability to stand up to anything, even with the Dopants still a new threat. It was shocking to find out that his partner was the Spider Dopant who obsessed with the singer and...technically he wins, creating such a ruckuss with his powers that GaiaMemory sales skyrocket in the ten years following this. And of course, just seeing KR Skull in action was awesome. Probably only two slight complaints: for some reason I didn't like Shroud being a bit less like a Marlow heroine and wearing leather like an action heroine compared to her future self...and I sort of wish we got the Sonozakis themselves appearing even in cameo; heck until she revealed herself as Bat Dopant, I thought the female seller was a younger Saeko. Top notch otherwise.

Movie War Core: Bleh...and once we get to the end, we enter "theme park ride" territory. KR Core's reason for existence is ridiculous and really made no sense (use memories of a battle and Maki's Core Medals from the Nobunaga incident to...create a firey KR and his giant motorcycle?) and was more or less a big fight scene. I did like the interactions between Shotaro, Philip and Eiji and the hilarious scene they meet Ankh so at least character moments were still there. Oh: and before I forget, somehow love the really weird ending with Eiji in Brazil with the Cous Coussier's owner...and the bittersweet Akiko going down the aisle with her dad. (though at least she and Terui will get one more appearance a bit later on)
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Old October 15th, 2013, 11:19 AM #142
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I trust you watched the Director's Cut yes? Not the theatrical version which was just badly edited all around?

Also, the OOO segment was written by Toushiki Inoue, not Yasuko Kobayashi. This will likely explain many things.
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Old October 15th, 2013, 12:06 PM #143
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Yeah...Inoue also did the movie and special of Ryuki...and from what I hear, any season of KR he didn't write he really screws with everything and does his own thing. That explains quite a bit.

And I did Director's Cut mostly because I assumed it was going to be a bit better being ten minutes longer. I do sort of wonder how Kobayashi would have handled the movie, though...heck I doubt she would be insane enough to make a movie that's essentially "lets bring Nobunaga back into our time because he was greedy and see what happens"...would she?
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Old October 15th, 2013, 12:26 PM #144
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Are there Riders besides Meteor whose use kung fu/Jeet Kune Do/Chinese whatever to fight?
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Old October 15th, 2013, 12:57 PM #145
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Inoue is basically the Chris Claremont of toku. He throws out what other people did and just does his own thing. He wrote the Ryuki novel, which is........................ yeah.

The Director's Cut actually is better because it at least explains some things. In the theatrical cut of the OOO segment, shit happens for no reason.
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Old October 15th, 2013, 01:07 PM #146
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The director's cut of a movie is almost always better than than the theatrical cut. This goes beyond the tokusatsu genre and into film in general. There are a few exceptions, of course. For example, I think Brian Helgeland's Payback lost a great deal of its charm when he released his preferred version on DVD.
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Old October 15th, 2013, 01:52 PM #147
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As long as it isn't the Director's Cut of "The Warriors"...did we really need comic book cutaways to a good movie?

Yeah...I sort of fear watching the original cut of OOO: Nobunaga's Ambition if it's as bad as it sounds. (though it sounds like "Message to W" aired first in theaters which feels wrong due to how the Pteranodon Yummy shows up first in the OOO movie leading into it's encounter in the W segment) The movie itself was pretty bad (even with the interesting if not well executed idea of Nobunaga of the modern age), so I fear what the original cut was like.
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Old October 18th, 2013, 04:10 AM #148
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Okay so I finally got around to watching Wizard x Fourze Ultimatum and I'm confused. I get most of what's going on but so... When does the present take place then? I would have assumed after the Fourze movie where he met Wizard for the first time, but then this seems to be where he meets Wizard for the first time before the movie, and in the movie Haruto didn't even know what a Kamen Rider was yet in this one he does. So do Fourze and Wizard pretty much take place at the same time or how does this work exactly I'm confused.
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Old October 18th, 2013, 05:08 AM #149
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OOO 13-14: When the talking hand is complaining about how weird and messed up things are, you know there are problems.

This story seemed to parallel the problems that were being held by Ankh and (once again, as if he hadn't caused enough problems so far) Gotou. Ankh's pride is sort of getting sick of all the strange things he has to deal with in order to just find his Medals and use Eiji for what he's needed for, let alone the fact he's using Hina's brother as his body until things are improved. Likewise, Gotou is sort of stuck in his situation of being used by Kougami for his "save the world aspirations", and is getting sick of the boss and his ways. Amazingly the two of them interact leading to the major crisis of the arc, where Ankh hits Gotou in a hospital (funny scene due to Hina) and then runs off really just wanting nothing more to do with this, even with his continued need to have Eiji find the Core Medals. Unfortunately with Ankh gone, Hina's brother enters a critical state, sort of showing the symbiosis the two have now with Ankh needing Shingo to interact with thre world and Hina obsessed in having her brother around. Meanwhile, Gotou gets reprimanded by Kougami and ends up learning he has to throw his pride away in order to really do what is needed, which probably means just sucking it in and working with the cake master...even if he has spent a bit of time around Maki (who is now making his talking doll ride trains...how evil is that!?)

The main story actually was interesting compared to the stuff going on with the main characters, involving a surgeon whose greed is merely the desire of wanting to do surgery but being held back by the hospital president due to him believing that she's pushing herself too hard and that she's not quite really for the full responsibility even if she has the skill. It was really creepy seeing her gain a Freddy Kruger hand when she becomes infested by Kazari's Yummy (combine that with the "Oni no Te"-like appendage of Ankh possessing Shingo and it was "evil hand night") but the reason turned out to be more complex, with her being the daughter of the hospital president and with him feeling that her abilities were masking the true risks that being a surgeon holds, including the potential of messing up and causing death (and probably the malpractice suits that follow). It was a bit weird they let her work on her own father at the climax but otherwise it was an interesting take on the "greed" aspect, in which something we would typically see as good or noble can mess someone up.
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Old October 18th, 2013, 05:39 AM #150
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Okay so I finally got around to watching Wizard x Fourze Ultimatum and I'm confused. I get most of what's going on but so... When does the present take place then? I would have assumed after the Fourze movie where he met Wizard for the first time, but then this seems to be where he meets Wizard for the first time before the movie
Tv-Nihon mistranslated Wizard's line after he meets Fourze. He just said a generic "Omae wa" ("You're..." in OT's version). Tv-Nihon tried to turn it into a full sentence, resulting in the "Who are you?", but it doesn't make sense in context. Wizard actually had already met Fourze before and he clearly recognizes what Fourze means when he talks about helping him for before (the movie cameo).
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Old October 18th, 2013, 02:56 PM #151
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SmashZ wrote: View Post

Tv-Nihon mistranslated Wizard's line after he meets Fourze. He just said a generic "Omae wa" ("You're..." in OT's version). Tv-Nihon tried to turn it into a full sentence, resulting in the "Who are you?", but it doesn't make sense in context. Wizard actually had already met Fourze before and he clearly recognizes what Fourze means when he talks about helping him for before (the movie cameo).
Ah I see. I knew that TVN had some inaccuracies in the movie but I just thought they were minor enough that I wouldn't even notice, but yeah that who are you thing just threw me for a loop. That and the nandana thing. I'm not exactly sure what that meant.

Another thing I just wondered is why didn't Nadeshiko stay on earth? Is it that she needs to live in space to survive? I just figured she'd want to be with Gentarou from now on.

And I'm guessing the picture Gentarou takes with his class at the end isn't the one that present Gentarou picked up and kept on him for five years?

Oh and something else that just came to mind. If we're to assume that besides Saburou the other three kids were the other three members of Saburou's gang in the Fourze storyline. Does that mean psychic powers are connected to magic? But in that case why haven't other gates had that kind of effect?

Well overall it wasn't a bad watch. I sort of wish Gentarou hadn't been nerfed so much to make Wizard look good, but it was written by the staff of Wizard so I guess I can understand that.
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Old October 18th, 2013, 10:23 PM #152
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Faiz 26-30:

One distinctive feature about Kamen Rider Delta is that the Greek letter Delta is unequivocally upside-down. And seeing as how the Ryusei school isn't studying vector calculus, the inversion is probably more symbolic than just needing to form bug antennae or a shark fin in the helmet design. While the Faiz and Kaixa powers have enabled certain characters to act out on their malicious tendencies, the Delta powers actually have caused the downfall of people, tempting them and reversing their personalities. Several Ryusei students were corrupted by it, committing all sorts of villainous acts out of addiction to power, from double-crossing their colleagues to discarding their humanity. Perhaps the disfunctional behavior of the Ryusei students is attributable to their Father, who has taken them in as if they were orphans, and effectively re-abandoned them and entrusted them with dangerous Rider belts. Left to their own devices, some have accepted the negative influences of their surroundings and become unfit to survive. In that regard, Father's actions have indirectly caused upon his orphans what Smart Brain has intentionally caused upon the Orphenochs.

Sawada and Saya experienced diametrically opposite effects from the Delta Gear. The latter remained completely pure, but suffered the beinga female Rider casualty before being able to bequeath the Delta belt to Takumi, whom for whatever reason she deemed worthy and infallible enough. In contrast, the former not only defected from the Ryusei School, not only attacked his former classmates with the intention of killing Mari, not only became an Orphenoch while discarding his humanity, but also joined the ranks of Lucky Clover. It's these extremes that make the Delta belt even more dangerous than the Kaixa belt, with its destruction being more widespread.

The two newest members of Lucky Clover - Sawada and Kitazaki - are extremely destructive, but in contrasting manners. As mentioned above, the Delta belt causes a gradual decline of the user (Sawada) and the surroundings, whereas Kitazaki immediately dissolves everything he touches into ash. Both methods have been terrifying, especially to Takuma, who's psychologically shaken up. The one who has caused so much fear is now stiken with fear, and in just the span of a few episodes, he's already been outclassed by stronger Orphenochs. If Smart Brain and Lucky Clover is about finding the fittest Orphenochs, Takuma may be a victim of the very system he enforced.

The two trios of protagonists have finally all assembled together, and it's all sorts of awkwardness. No one managed to figure out anyone else's secrets during the session, but the vote on whether Orphenochs have humanity did give plenty of insight into everyone's state of mind. Mari believes that Orphenochs can still have humanity, and yet the only one she knows is Sawada; in spite of everything he's done, she still believes in him as much as she believes in Kusaka. (Knowing Kusaka, her judgement of character may be flawed.) Takumi refuses to assent, even while sitting right next to Yuka (whom he convinces to dissent). He does not completely trust her or the Ryusei School Father, and he's willing to show his contempt, forbidding Keitarou and Mari from having relationships with Yuka and Yuji, respectively. Keitarou and Kaidou don't even have a strong opinion on the subject; all they're concerned about is living their lives and changing their habits. Those two are like peas in a pod - perhaps that's proof enough that humans and Orphenochs aren't as different as everyone thinks. Then again, this isn't something that any one character would be able to figure out at the moment.

All this conflict has brought out extreme positions - Takumi vowed to let no Orphenoch live, while Yuji vowed to let no human be killed. So extreme that, combined with their masked rivalry, there remained humongous obstacles towards trust even when they mutually discovered they were allies. Of course Kusaka would amplify that mistrust, he just wants each of them to himself. These manipulations and conflicts of moral ambiguity are all the result of each character having a limited glimpse into the overall situation, having only mere pieces of the grand puzzle. This is what the images in the opening represent: there are only fragmented windows of view into other characters, and the lack of a complete picture naturally forces unreasonable extrapolations. The symbolism is strengthened by the fact that the images in the opening may seem complete enough, and the main characters all believe they have enough information to justify their worldviews to the point that it takes the shock of major contradicting information to shatter that. Anyways, this is one of the first major positions that Takumi/φz has taken, and the opening is titled "Justiφ's" - while it's often been brought up about whether several other characters' ends justify their means, perhaps it'll soon be a question about whether φz's ends justiφ's his means.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 10:34 AM #153
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Maybe it's just me but I always kinda felt Takumi was a Squall Leonheart from FFVIII type of character. Just without all the leather.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 01:10 PM #154
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Faiz Paradise Lost (Director's Cut):

Oh, that Inoue. When writing movies he tends not to follow what the series is doing, but here Inoue dares to contradict even the great Inoue's work. What would Inoue think of Inoue's alternate Bizarro future, with an inversion of the roles of Orphenochs and humans - the former being the common populace, the latter being the feared renegade aggressors? What would Inoue think of Inoue's reversal of Takumi's and Yuji's relationship, starting with them in perfect harmony and ending with a mortal conflict? What would Inoue think of Inoue's removal of the love triangles and resulting drama, instead focusing on one relationship, between Takumi and Mari?

It's fairly clear that the title is based off of John Milton's work, though how loose an interpretation it is depends on what aspect's being considered. "Paradise", for instance, is anything but - it's a human refugee camp filled with desolate poverty. Its loss wasn't caused by temptation, but rather was an indirect cause of it. It was Yuji who was tempted to metaphorically bite the forbidden fruit by killing a human and discard his vow. Though he had only the noblest of intentions, it lead to his cascading decline as he gradually lost his all allies and was convinced to be Takumi's enemy. Takumi, on the other hand, was viewed as the Savior/Messiah to the people. After returning from his presumed death, he was mistrusted and even betrayed, not just by Mizuhara but also Yuji, and yet even still he was able to save humanity.

In what is probably the weirdest part of the movie (even weirder than Leo's bilingual conversations), Murakami has been reduced to a head in a jar, Futurama style. He is now Smart Brain's smart brain, with much more control over the organization and its vast reach. If Murakami is the brain, the Riotroopers form the immune system, protecting the body en masse from the human "pathogens" and Faiz. They certainly are a formidable army, managing to defeat Faiz once and nearly exterminate the human camp, even more effectively than Lucky Clover has ever managed (though Psyga does get a lot of the credit for that).

The (non-mass-produced) Riders bear the Greek letters Phi, Chi, Psi, and Omega, the final four in the alphabet. And this movie sure gives a sense of finality to several characters, with Faiz being the only surviving Rider (and getting his Blaster Form, to boot). Everyone who died did so doing what they loved - Kusaka from fighting Orphenochs and attempting to win Mari's heart, Kaido and Yuka for standing on Yuji's principle, Yuji from directly protecting a human, Murakami from being unsuccessful in crushing humanity. Interestingly, Keitarou escaped death after using the fatal Kaixa belt; it was the belt that finally died. Perhaps the change of fate from the professor's first successful experiment is a beacon of hope for humans, though it's hard to see how Keitarou's one-time fight is supposed to inspire confidence.

One of the highlighted themes of the series is the symmetry between the protagonists, and the climactic fight did not fail that. Takumi versus Yuji, Faiz versus Orga, wolf versus horse - it was a truly balanced conflict that was much more personal and emotionally charged than their anonymous fights in series, not caused by misunderstandings but rather by a difference in principles exacerbated by feelings of mutual betrayal. And even after all that, they can still come to an understanding. They inherited each other's missions, with Yuji protecting Mari in his last act, and Takumi bringing peace between Orphenochs and humans in exposing the public prejudice. Like Otoya and Maya, it just starts with two, with Takumi and Mari gaining acceptance from the crowd and walking off into the distance. Paradise found, perhaps?
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Old October 20th, 2013, 02:08 PM #155
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The SIC Hero Saga story for Faiz serves as a prequel to Paradise lost, and it explains certain elements of the plot, such as Murakami's headlessness, the absence of the Delta belt, and the existence of the Psyga and Orga belts.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 02:27 PM #156
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Tokuman wrote: View Post

Ah I see. I knew that TVN had some inaccuracies in the movie but I just thought they were minor enough that I wouldn't even notice, but yeah that who are you thing just threw me for a loop. That and the nandana thing. I'm not exactly sure what that meant.

Another thing I just wondered is why didn't Nadeshiko stay on earth? Is it that she needs to live in space to survive? I just figured she'd want to be with Gentarou from now on.

And I'm guessing the picture Gentarou takes with his class at the end isn't the one that present Gentarou picked up and kept on him for five years?

Oh and something else that just came to mind. If we're to assume that besides Saburou the other three kids were the other three members of Saburou's gang in the Fourze storyline. Does that mean psychic powers are connected to magic? But in that case why haven't other gates had that kind of effect?
Nandana?

Yeah, Nadeshiko is meant to stay in space. Megamax established that (or at least the O-T subs did) when she dissipated, and when she kept on trying to get to higher and higher places. She could possibly come down and visit Gentaro, but she seems to be travelling the cosmos.

It's implied that yeah, it is that picture and it's what drives Gentaro to eventally become a teacher.

We don't know for certain that Gates are candidates for being Neo-Humans. However, keep in mind that the kids were both used to power a hell-designed machine (so who knows what that did to them) and they awakened years afterwards. Perhaps the other Gates do awaken 5 years after Wizard.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 03:15 PM #157
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Thermite Kitten wrote: View Post

Nandana?

Yeah, Nadeshiko is meant to stay in space. Megamax established that (or at least the O-T subs did) when she dissipated, and when she kept on trying to get to higher and higher places. She could possibly come down and visit Gentaro, but she seems to be travelling the cosmos.

It's implied that yeah, it is that picture and it's what drives Gentaro to eventally become a teacher.

We don't know for certain that Gates are candidates for being Neo-Humans. However, keep in mind that the kids were both used to power a hell-designed machine (so who knows what that did to them) and they awakened years afterwards. Perhaps the other Gates do awaken 5 years after Wizard.
Yeah TVN added it into every one of Gaara's sentences so I wasn't sure if it meant anything or not.

I thought with Nadeshiko it was more like she just about died, she went into space to recover, and then after that she didn't need to be in space anymore. She just needed to at the time because she was near death and needed to heal through being bathed in cosmic energy. I figured once she was all good she'd come back and spend all her time with Gentarou at least back when I watched Megamax that's how I imagined it.

Sort of weird then that the picture is taken after everything happened then.

Maybe. But if gates are candidates for becoming neo humans I guess that means psychic powers are a more natural form of magic than what Haruto has.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 08:08 PM #158
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Rey_Alejandro wrote: View Post

Murakami's headlessness
Headlessness? The head was the only thing he had.

But yeah, I'd imagine there's a lot of context that can frame the movie, and that the SIC Hero Saga would elucidate on the rich history behind it.

Tokuman wrote: View Post

Yeah TVN added it into every one of Gaara's sentences so I wasn't sure if it meant anything or not.
It was that character's verbal tic (like Dekaranger's narrator saying "Jasmine is an ESPer de aru", you see) and that was just TV-Nihon being TV-Nihon. Nothing's lost by simply ignoring it.

By the way, Over-Time did release Ultimatum, but it was such a sub-par movie that it might not be worth re-watching.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 08:11 PM #159
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Every time you watch Ultimatum, you get put on a list. Units use it as bait in all the secret forums.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 08:14 PM #160
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Meh, it's not as bad SHT or Let's Go, so there's that.

At least Toei decided to stop bringing in past non-Rider heroes...
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