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Old June 4th, 2012, 02:05 PM #41
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I would consider that a spoiler as it might happen. The producers said they are not adapting the books they are adapting the series as a hole so things will be shuffled around most likely.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 02:18 PM #42
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That's not shuffling things around though. That's completely disregarding the story in order to present a big dramatic scene that never even occurs in the books. Sure, its possible that Sam still has his moment; in fact, it's pretty likely that he does, just because its good character development. My problem with it is that it presents a whole new slew of issues.

Not only is Sam completely separated from his brothers, making it almost impossible for him to get back to The Wall on his own, but now he's got a literal wall of Others between him and his destination, making that almost impossible journey back to The Wall even more difficult. And while Sam certainly has grown as a character, he's still fat and craven, which only adds even more difficulty to the task, making it highly unrealistic that he could survive this ordeal.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 02:56 PM #43
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I understood that Jon didn't encounter the Walkers there. When I said "him" I was referring to Sam, since this is all happening north of the Wall, as I mentioned.

And yes, that's a spoiler, because it still may happen. Please don't mention things like that again. Your comments about Tulisa also fall under the same rule, as I'm fairly certain that they're playing around with things and what you think was meant to happen is still happening.

I'm so glad I haven't read the books. Though I suspect that, even if I had, I would not spend so much time being annoyed with everything that didn't get used verbatim.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 03:08 PM #44
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Big_Pun wrote: View Post


Obviously Cersei knows what kind of person Joff really is, she's his mother. And no, after everything we've seen from Cersei, why would you think that she did this for Sansa? She did this because there's no benefit in uniting the Lannister's and Starks anymore, while House Tyrell remains one of the most prominent, wealthy, and militarily strong Houses in all of Westeros.
Because, she could have sentenced Sansa to death she obviously had some sort of courtesy by letting Sansa live. Yes it was mainly for her gain I think there is some sort of a sorry we did this to you our apology is letting you live.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 03:30 PM #45
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It's not that I'm annoyed. It's that I'm concerned with how they're going to tell this story going forward, when a lot of minor details that eventually bloom into huge plot points are being changed or otherwise disregarded entirely. It's like how the Harry Potter film series ignored certain minor characters/events in their adaptations of the earlier books, only to have to shoehorn them in later on when they became important, with an explanation that was either lackluster or made no sense at all.

And as far as the whole thing with Talisa/Jeyne goes...I don't really see how that could be construed as a spoiler. I didn't "spoil" anything. Clearly, the people in charge of the show are going an entirely different route with her character. I simply noted the differences between her novel character and her TV one. I can see how what I said about Sam could be viewed as a spoiler, since there's still a good chance for him to do the things I mentioned in my previous post and for that I apologize if someone was put off by it. But the Talisa/Jeyne thing is in no way a spoiler. It's not like they're going to go into Season 3 and completely change the backstory that they've already presented on TV just to service the book series and its fans.

Hell, the only reason they changed her name from Jeyne to Talisa is because there are two Jeyne's of importance in the novel series and they thought fans would be confused by having two characters with the same name. That's not even the real issue though. Changing her name is understandable on some basic level, even though I don't think the average fan would be confused by two completely different characters sharing the same name. The average viewer of GoT is in the 18-49 demographic. It's not like PR where having two Rangers both named Mike on the same team might confuse a 6 year-old. As producers of a major TV show, especially one that already had legions of fans before the first episode even aired, you do a huge disservice to those fans by treating them as unintelligent.

But the real issue that bothers me is the fact that they completely changed her backstory, because it's really an unnecessary change. Her backstory and where she comes from isn't a factor in the books, despite her House being allied with the Lannisters. It's just something that's there. Changing it for no reason whatsoever just bothers me.

But getting back to the point...how was me mentioning her changes a spoiler? I didn't "spoil" anything at all. They've already "retconned" her backstory, so to speak. All I did was mention the differences in the genesis of the character.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 03:41 PM #46
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He was talking more about Sam I think.s
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Old June 4th, 2012, 03:48 PM #47
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On the subject of Tulisa. Just by talking about this, we are more than likely inadvertently explaining something that will happen in the future season, but there's no way to say it without that, so here we go.




Consider that Tulisa is not who she says she is. Let's not mention the "other" character going forward please.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 03:50 PM #48
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Well, he mentioned the Jeyne/Talisa thing as a spoiler as well, which is why I felt the need to justify why it wasn't one. Getting back to Cersei/Sansa though, you said...

comicgeek wrote: View Post

...she could have sentenced Sansa to death she obviously had some sort of courtesy by letting Sansa live. Yes it was mainly for her gain I think there is some sort of a sorry we did this to you our apology is letting you live.
Do you have any idea how awful it would have looked to the people of Westeros to have Sansa killed for no reason at all? We're talking about a medieval world where, much like with medieval England, things like honor and religion are a cornerstone of their society. When you have a highborn hostage/prisoner, you treat them as well as your means will allow you to and the Lannisters have the means to treat Sansa very well.

Plus, you saw how Joffrey reacted when Ser Loras asked him to marry Margaery. Joff wanted to do it, but even he knew that he couldn't turn his back on a holy vow. It wasn't until the septon intervened and explained that they were willing to absolve him of his previous vow that Joff was able to accept the proposal. Clearly, Joff knows that there are still a few things even a king can't get away with and tampering with holy laws is one of them.

And yes, you could argue that Joff had Ned beheaded, so why not Sansa as well? But at least with Ned, Cersei could twist the facts to accuse him of treason. With Sansa, there would have been no grounds to execute the girl except for the treason of her father and brother, crimes which she'd already been absolved of.

I'm sure Cersei knows that Sansa is pleased she won't have to marry Joffrey, but in the end, that pleasure had nothing to do with the decision. If anything, Sansa's temporary happiness is a "necessary evil" for Cersei to deal with at the moment. Cersei has shown herself to be entirely self-serving throughout the series, caring only about things that will further the best interests of her House. Had marrying Joffrey to Sansa been the best thing for her House, she would have done it regardless of how Sansa felt about it.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 04:03 PM #49
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Please read my post above, in case you missed it.

And yeah, I agree with comicgeek about Cersei, to a degree. Cersei is a terrible woman, but she's also proud of herself for "rescuing" Sansa from the fate that she and her daughter were resigned to.

That doesn't mean that Cersei wouldn't straight-up kill Sansa if she really wanted to or felt like it had to happen to save her own family. But she knows what it's like to be Sansa, and thus feels protective of her, in her own fucked-up way. Like an abusive mother that still "loves" the child she's abusing.

Not that Cersei wasn't also thinking about the political importance of marrying Renly's beard instead. But it has more than one meaning to her personally. She probably feels like she's done a good deed. No matter how small and ridiculously simple it is, considering how terrible Sansa's life is still going to be.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 04:10 PM #50
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I'll be honest, while I am a little concerned with the changes being made from book to screen, judging how involved George RR Martin is with the show I don't plan on getting too worried. Rumor has it that if he were to pass before he finishes writing the series (God forbid) that the executive producers are some of the very few that he has communicated the ending of the series with. They know what they're doing and they have his blessing.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 04:26 PM #51
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Multiple Man wrote: View Post

~snip~
I won't mention her anymore if its that big of a deal, but having read the novels, I can guarantee you that nothing I mentioned in regards to who she was in the books spoils or alludes to anything that happens later on in the series.

And that is what really bothers me about her changes. As was mentioned on a previous page, Robb is only seen through his mother's eyes in the second book, so we never really get to see his relationship with "Talisa" develop. It's just something that is explained during a conversation with Robb/Catelyn.

There's a lot that happens "off page" in the novels. As an author, Martin rarely shows the reader what is happening right away. For example, he will end a Tyrion chapter right before a battle, then spend several chapters following other characters. Throughout those chapters, other minor characters will come in and mention what they saw or heard about the battle, leaving it up to the reader to find their own truth, until finally it comes back to Tyrion and we get the real story, or at least his variation of it.

Being that TV is obviously a much more visual form of media than a novel, I knew from the start that there were going to be some major changes to that formula, that we were going to see things on-screen that were never actually shown in the books. And I was happy about that.

To be honest, I was actually looking forward to seeing things like Robb's relationship with "Talisa" develop on-screen because in the books, Robb just suddenly appears in one of Catelyn's chapters as a newly married man and that's it. "Talisa" herself is fairly unimportant in the novels; rather, it's the act of Robb marrying another woman when he was already promised to a Frey that is highlighted. And that's why I was looking forward to seeing the relationship unfold on-screen.

I wanted to see the angry, distraught daughter who would hate Robb, be furious with him for taking her father's castle and seemingly ruining her life. I wanted to see Robb try to win her over and fail. And I wanted to see the slow development of how that all changed. Instead, we got an entirely new character with an entirely new backstory and a relationship between she and Robb that from the start is shown to be flirtatious and based on an obvious mutual attraction between them.

Being that you haven't read the books, I can totally understand why something like this wouldn't seem like that big of a deal to you. But as someone who has read the books, it just felt cheap to me, a huge disservice to fans of the novels who really wanted to see Martin's stories brought to life on television.

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I'll be honest, while I am a little concerned with the changes being made from book to screen, judging how involved George RR Martin is with the show I don't plan on getting too worried. Rumor has it that if he were to pass before he finishes writing the series (God forbid) that the executive producers are some of the very few that he has communicated the ending of the series with. They know what they're doing and they have his blessing.
At the moment, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well. So far, aside from a few changes that I didn't really like, the show has been very faithful to the source material, even in situations where things are presented differently than they were in the novels.

But as far as Martin's involvement goes, I will say this...once a show or film series takes enough little liberties with the source material, it's usually only a matter of time before producers/writers start picking and choosing what they want to include and then filling in the rest with their own material. The Harry Potter films suffered from this, despite J.K. Rowling's involvement in the script-writing process, same with Charlaine Harris and the True Blood series.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 04:27 PM #52
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Wasn't it stated that these are the only writers that will be allowed to know if knew ones come on board they will not be told. and Big Pun once Sansa was freed they could have killed her for connection to the traitors with reason.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 04:33 PM #53
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Except for the fact that Sansa was already absolved of any connection to Ned and Robb. Not only that, but she was shown to aide Cersei early on, feeding her bits of information regarding Ned that helped Cersei gain the upper hand against him. Granted, if Sansa had had any idea of what was going to happen to Ned, she wouldn't have said anything to Cersei, but it's still known to all of Joff's advisers, most highborns, etc., that Sansa helped unfold Ned's "treason" to the kingdom. You just can't execute someone like that, especially not someone highborn like Sansa, regardless of what her family has done.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 07:54 PM #54
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Your arguments are a little too absolute for me, to be honest.

They could easily cook up a million different lies about why they "had to" execute her, or made it look like an accident or suicide. They don't need a good reason. They just have to want to kill her.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 08:19 PM #55
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Exactly in Season 1 Cersei herself said power is power if she has the power she can do anything to anyone.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 04:45 AM #56
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Multiple Man wrote: View Post

Your arguments are a little too absolute for me, to be honest.

They could easily cook up a million different lies about why they "had to" execute her, or made it look like an accident or suicide. They don't need a good reason. They just have to want to kill her.
Exacty, and at this point Sansa still has a purpose and Cersei knows that. It would seem that the queen has favor for Sansa in one way or another, and just like Baelish says Sansa will still "belong" to Joffrey.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 05:32 AM #57
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Yeah I am interested how the next season will work. I do wish Sansa would have escaped with the Dog she would have been so much safer and it would have created a neat storyline o well I wonder however if she had known what would happen would she have left?
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Old June 5th, 2012, 07:26 PM #58
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Sansa did the right thing not leaving with The Hound. Although The Hound would probably have not mistreated her on account of him being clearly in love with her... so there's also that. I don't know man, I know we're not supposed to trust Littlefinger (he said so himself), but I get an almost Tyrion-like secret-nobility vibe from him. Sometimes. Maybe. Anybody else feel like he may end up being a really good guy?

... But my major gripe with the whole season with Daenerys ' storyline: "Where are my dragons, where are my dragons?? I am the Mother of Dragons! Seriously, where are my dragons??"

Not only was it the worst one of all (with Tyrion and Arya being the best), but it was also the storyline responsible for the LEAST amount of nudity this whole season (not counting Arya's storyline)!! I mean, even Rob's storyline got some sex! Last season, Daenerys couldn't keep her clothes on, and this season we didn't get so much as a bathing scene! Just saying.

I know this comes off as me being a major-perv, but clearly I'm concerned about the... um... story and development of the character. That's it.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 07:29 PM #59
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Multiple Man wrote: View Post

Jon Snow's story is still kind of boring to me, but at least the whole "north of the Wall" plot is moving ahead, finally showing in full force the Whitewalkers that were shown so briefly in season one. I was freaking out that they were gonna kill him, but they clearly have bigger fish to fry right now. I'm wondering just how intelligent these guys are. If they still ride horses and keep weapons and have coordinated movements, they have to be smarter than your average movie zombie. Unless they're just going off of sense memory or whatever.
The White Walkers themselves (on the horses) are fairly intelligent, but I don't believe we've ever been told exactly how much so in the novels, but they are. They took Craster's sons as sacrifices, or something, which we see in the end of episode 2 of the season. They have a level of intelligence.

Also, in season 1, they arguably laid an ambush for those three Night's Watch members in the opening.

The zombies (Wights)...no idea. Based on the Lord of Bones (or was it another Wildling?), Qhorin might have come after Jon in anger (of course this was the plan, so that anger doesn't exist), implying they have some human qualities carry over. The Wight in season 1 found his way to Mormont's chamber, after all. It was seemingly smart enough to go after the leader (or it could have just wandered there).

I'd say the White Walkers are intelligent, the Wights retain some memories and emotions, but with more limited intelligence.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 01:17 AM #60
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In both the books and the show the Daenerys story just feels too far separated from the action in Westeros by nature of her story. It just gets difficult to be invested in her story.
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