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Old July 4th, 2016, 01:50 PM #221
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Spoony Spoonerson wrote: View Post

Granted, it's not a done deal until both Parliament and Lords have debated it and we invoke Article 50. That said, both Cameron and Corbyn have both said that they'll respect the will of the majority in seeing it through. Cameron resigned because he doesn't want to be the one to "push the button" on it, but hopefully the next PM will.
Totally agree this is the likely outcome, unless there's enough sway from the public in the interim period between now and a newly elected PM - whether that be the Tories or Labour, I'm not saying it will, or is even likely to happen - but I'm just so tired of the media going on about how "Britain has left the EU" - we haven't, we've said we'd like to, but nobody's manned up and done it yet. It's a historic act and that person will be remembered one way or the other.
The Lib Dems are a complete outside shot these days. Whilst they may have sat as the "protest vote" 10 years ago, the co-majority with The Tories tarnished their name, and they lost a lot of votes at last year's elections because of it.
I have to say, mine included.
As far as the calls and Facebook petitions for a second referendum go, I'm against it. It would be hard to take any political decision seriously and could possibly lead to chaos if MPs felt justified in ignoring an elected government because they thought the outcome was weak enough to be questioned. So whichever way it goes and whoever says it, I don't think votes should be questioned or redone.
But, and here's the thing, the referendum was never binding, it was an opinion poll. The problem the government made was always saying they'd honor whatever the result, we should have said we'll take it under advisement, that would have given Cameron his out if he wanted it. More fool him I guess.
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It was even earlier than that. As soon as we knew Corbyn was running for leadership they were slagging him off.

I agree about the SNP though. I know last year my mum said she wished she could vote SNP because they seemed like the only ones with any sense.
Have to say I take the sign of how good an MP is based on how much the media fucking hate him - they hate Corbyn, therefore the man will get my vote, I've never voted Labour before!
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Old July 4th, 2016, 02:08 PM #222
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LastLine wrote: View Post

But, and here's the thing, the referendum was never binding, it was an opinion poll. The problem the government made was always saying they'd honor whatever the result, we should have said we'll take it under advisement, that would have given Cameron his out if he wanted it. More fool him I guess.
Politically speaking, it's a bad idea to hold a referendum and then not go along with the outcome. It's basically telling your populace "You know that thing you want us to do? Yeah, we're not going to do that." Whether it's meant like that or not, you're essentially taunting them. No good has ever come from such a message being sent to the public.

I'm not taking sides on the EU issue (don't know enough about it one way or the other), but if Cameron wasn't willing to follow through on the results of the referendum, he should have done everything in his power to keep it from happening in the first place. You can't deliberately override the public if the public hasn't made its feelings known.

EDIT: Alternatively, the threshold for parliamentary consideration should have been explicitly set at something reasonable, but still higher than 50%. In both American and British law, the highest majority of the Congressional/Parliamentary vote needed to pass any measure is two-thirds (66.7%)*. MPs could have translated that directly to the public and promised to follow through with the referendum results if the margin of victory was 2:1. The two-thirds figure itself is a nice choice, striking a reasonable balance between "the tyranny of the 51%" and "we don't care what the public says".

*Fun fact: The last time a single party held a two-thirds majority in both houses of the United States Congress, it was the Democrats from 1965-1967, under President Lyndon Johnson. The last time a single party held a two-thirds majority in the United Kingdom House of Commons, it was the Conservatives from 1931-1935, under Prime Ministers Ramsay MacDonald and Stanley Baldwin.

Last edited by GetTheeToABrewery; July 5th, 2016 at 09:33 AM.
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Old July 5th, 2016, 03:49 AM #223
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johnboy3434 wrote: View Post


*Fun fact: The last time a single party held a two-thirds majority in both houses of the United States Congress, it was the Democrats from 1965-1967, under President Lyndon Johnson. The last time a single party held a two-thirds majority in the United Kingdom House of Commons, it was the Conservatives from 1931-1935, under Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald.
MacDonald was Labour.
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Old July 5th, 2016, 06:48 AM #224
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LondonBoy wrote: View Post

MacDonald was Labour.
Indeed he was, but he broke from the party and started National Labour in 1931 due to disagreements over how to tackle the Great Depression. While the Conservatives held the supermajority of seats, National Labour was part of the majority coalition with them, and MacDonald retained his seat as Prime Minister from the previous parliament.

His betrayal and the unprecedented trouncing Labour subsequently suffered in the election apparently tarnished the man's reputation irreparably, even for decades after he passed away.

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Old July 5th, 2016, 10:33 AM #225
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johnboy3434 wrote: View Post

Politically speaking, it's a bad idea to hold a referendum and then not go along with the outcome. It's basically telling your populace "You know that thing you want us to do? Yeah, we're not going to do that." Whether it's meant like that or not, you're essentially taunting them. No good has ever come from such a message being sent to the public.
Quite right, but then that is the nature of the decision - there is always the option for them to ignore it, I doubt they will but they could.

I think given the narrow majority it'd be quite easy for them to manoeuvre out of it if they really had a mind to, but now we've had that result it's definitely on the table.

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I'm not taking sides on the EU issue (don't know enough about it one way or the other), but if Cameron wasn't willing to follow through on the results of the referendum, he should have done everything in his power to keep it from happening in the first place. You can't deliberately override the public if the public hasn't made its feelings known.

EDIT: Alternatively, the threshold for parliamentary consideration should have been explicitly set at something reasonable, but still higher than 50%. In both American and British law, the highest majority of the Congressional/Parliamentary vote needed to pass any measure is two-thirds (66.7%)*. MPs could have translated that directly to the public and promised to follow through with the referendum results if the margin of victory was 2:1. The two-thirds figure itself is a nice choice, striking a reasonable balance between "the tyranny of the 51%" and "we don't care what the public says".

*Fun fact: The last time a single party held a two-thirds majority in both houses of the United States Congress, it was the Democrats from 1965-1967, under President Lyndon Johnson. The last time a single party held a two-thirds majority in the United Kingdom House of Commons, it was the Conservatives from 1931-1935, under Prime Ministers Ramsay MacDonald and Stanley Baldwin.
See this would be my general feeling, it's been too close for my personal taste. I'll say this, I'm a remain voter, but I think it'd be fair to say with how passionate the subject matter is taking a slim decision like this is risky for whoever takes it in either case. It should always have been a specified majority, literally a 'if x% say leave, we'll get our coat and go" type logic.
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Old July 5th, 2016, 10:36 AM #226
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Christoph Waltz shares his opinion on Farage leaving

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Old July 5th, 2016, 10:37 AM #227
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Liam Fox eliminated from the Tory leadership. May's in the lead: https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/750382290686078976

Edit: Crabb's dropped out: https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/750415196347326464

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Old July 7th, 2016, 08:48 AM #228
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So we are now guaranteed, one way or another, our first female prime minister since Margaret Thatcher, as the final two candidates in the Tory leadership race are Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom. Micheal Gough, who backstabbed Boris Johnson to make a bid, has dropped out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36737426
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Old July 7th, 2016, 08:55 AM #229
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Cameron Samurai wrote: View Post

So we are now guaranteed, one way or another, our first female prime minister since Margaret Thatcher, as the final two candidates in the Tory leadership race are Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom. Micheal Gough, who backstabbed Boris Johnson to make a bid, has dropped out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36737426
Andrea Leadsom openly has stated she is against Gay Marriage and wants to allow Fox Hunting again.

They'll both claim to be the next Maggie Thatcher, which is a death sentence in most parts of Scotland still.
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Old July 7th, 2016, 08:58 AM #230
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Internutt wrote: View Post

Andrea Leadsom openly has stated she is against Gay Marriage and wants to allow Fox Hunting again.
Congratulations Theresa
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Old July 7th, 2016, 09:14 AM #231
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EDIT: Never mind. Stupid question.
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Old July 7th, 2016, 10:08 AM #232
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Cameron Samurai wrote: View Post

So we are now guaranteed, one way or another, our first female prime minister since Margaret Thatcher, as the final two candidates in the Tory leadership race are Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom. Micheal Gough, who backstabbed Boris Johnson to make a bid, has dropped out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36737426
It's Gove, not Gough. Good riddance. Why someone who backstabs another politician would think they're electable, I don't know!
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Old July 7th, 2016, 10:41 AM #233
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Digifiend wrote: View Post

It's Gove, not Gough. Good riddance. Why someone who backstabs another politician would think they're electable, I don't know!
Probably because he lives in the weird bubble that a lot of politicians seem to inhabit where they think that behaviour is normal. It's sad that at this point a lot of politicians would just see that as "showing a lot of political skill". Still, glad he's out.
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Old July 7th, 2016, 10:58 AM #234
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Michael Gough should be PM. He'd trap Parliament in his toyroom and force them to play the Trilogic Game.
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Old July 7th, 2016, 11:00 AM #235
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HowlingSnail wrote: View Post

Michael Gough should be PM. He'd trap Parliament in his toyroom and force them to play the Trilogic Game.
And then he'd serve them Vichyssoise in a cave while exercising his sardonic wit.
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Old July 7th, 2016, 11:11 AM #236
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HowlingSnail wrote: View Post

Michael Gough should be PM. He'd trap Parliament in his toyroom and force them to play the Trilogic Game.
"Should I persuade voters to take a sandwich with them?"
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Old July 7th, 2016, 11:22 AM #237
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Michael Gough- We're going to need a bigger house.
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Old July 8th, 2016, 02:23 PM #238
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https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The Government's responded to that petition for second referendum. Predictable but disappointing. Although rather contradictory when they say they're going to secure the best outcome for the British people yet also say they're committed to taking us out of the EU.

Just remember, 52%, all the shit that goes down over the next few years is your own doing.
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Old July 8th, 2016, 02:27 PM #239
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HowlingSnail wrote: View Post

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

The Government's responded to that petition for second referendum. Predictable but disappointing. Although rather contradictory when they say they're going to secure the best outcome for the British people yet also say they're committed to taking us out of the EU.

Just remember, 52%, all the shit that goes down over the next few years is your own doing.
See this kind of talk in bold? Don't do that. If it continues, from anyone, I'll issue infractions or close the thread.
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Old July 8th, 2016, 03:57 PM #240
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Frankly I'm surprised the thread's lasted this long given the rule on no political discussions (Which was being enforced in other threads today) and the fact I'm hardly the first person to openly express my views on here.
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