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Old April 13th, 2019, 12:36 PM #3461
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Cuchulainn wrote: View Post

Hates. Like, really hates. As in he bought entire boxes-worth of Rose Tico figs just to dismember them. Guy's a kook, but sadly not far off from what I've seen from some SW fans in the wild.
Makes it sound like SW fans are some primitive tribe.


Actually, thats not far off.
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Old April 13th, 2019, 01:00 PM #3462
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It is, though.

Like I said, people need to stop lumping everyone that doesn't have the same response as them to a given movie into the same group as crazy YouTubers who cut heads off toys and blame everything on "the SJWs".
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Old April 13th, 2019, 01:02 PM #3463
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Coming back to an older post...

JaimeZeo wrote: View Post

A lot of people clearly disagree, though, hence the talking of the shit.
This sentiment needs to die.

"Other people agree with me, therefore I'm right" is pure nonsense. Just because a bunch of people having the same opinion doesn't mean it earns any objective merit or value.

Who cares what other people think, when YOUR opinion should stand on its own.
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Old April 13th, 2019, 01:20 PM #3464
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TeraMan wrote: View Post

Coming back to an older post...



This sentiment needs to die.

"Other people agree with me, therefore I'm right" is pure nonsense. Just because a bunch of people having the same opinion doesn't mean it earns any objective merit or value.

Who cares what other people think, when YOUR opinion should stand on its own.
That's not even remotely what I was saying there, though, as illustrated with the preceding and following messages. I was responding to Lazerwolf saying how people shit talk Rian Johnson, and I was giving context to why that's the case. I then agreed with him on points as to why some of that shit talk is unwarranted.

My opinion can and does stand on its own, and I can actually back it up, as I have been doing. I'm not basing it on that of others, but it's also important to not disregard that as well.
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Old April 13th, 2019, 01:31 PM #3465
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Yeah Tera, you really jumped the gun on admonishing him there. Whether a lot of people are "right" to shit-talk Rian Johnson (whatever that may mean) is an entirely separate topic: The fact that a lot of people disagree with his handling of The Last Jedi is a perfectly logical explanation for the existence of said shit-talk.
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Old April 13th, 2019, 01:56 PM #3466
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Heehee, assuming there wouldn’t be any shit talk about rian.
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Old April 13th, 2019, 04:59 PM #3467
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News about some upcoming comics:
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...willow-wilson/
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Old April 13th, 2019, 07:05 PM #3468
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JaimeZeo wrote: View Post

You've contradicted yourself instantly here. If it's important to her, the lead character of the trilogy, then it's important to the audience, and thus the natural response for most fans is to speculate and theorize. Whilst I can't say I did - I'm much more of a "let's see how this plays out" when it comes to movies, shows and games - fans cannot be faulted the way they were for simply coming up with potential answers to questions the first film offered.
Important to her does not mean "because it must be someone connected to a past character." It was important to her, and then she grows from the truth of it, and the audience is supposed to follow along. It's important to the audience until it's not important to her, but the problem seems to be the audience not following her path once she accepts the truth and moves on. It's like there's a form of arrested development between the audience and character.

You said they set it up as a reveal though. Which, it still was, just not the reveal people expected. I was asking if they really put that much seeding into it beyond a basic backstory set up/reason for hero to be reluctant.

I don't think anyone has implied that she HAD to be connected to existing characters, either.
It does seem like the most common complaint about it, though. Her not being someone more important, a Kenobi, a Skywalker, just a no one who rose up. Every complaint seems to start on the idea they made it seem important but then some veer off into a "because it should have been this" territory.

That's entirely the execution, much like the majority of either the questions answered or the wacky and wonderful "DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING" approach to every aspect of the movie.
What gives it the sense of "lol nobody cares", the tone of which implies it's supposed to be a trick on the audience more than unexpected developments? There is a big twist, sure, and maybe there's a reliance on "didn't see that coming" but that only further fits the overarching point of stories and legends. I just can't see how "didn't see that coming" plays out as a mean trick the way it sounds like you're saying it did. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your problem with it.

She didn't react to Kylo's "revelation" about her parents in any real way, though. It was sad-face "they're nobody" then immediately carrying on the exact same she had been the rest of the movie, with no genuine conflict or growth. Again, that's an issue with the entire movie. There was no genuine, tangible progress in the majority of characters that thematically hadn't been covered by TFA.
Because she knew they were nobody and she wasn't some big secret character in a grand saga. It was her deep down denial she was being confronted with in that moment.

To be fair, after that development she goes immediately to save the Resistance and we don't really get much more time for her to have emotional responses. She ends with a lot on her plate, the way everyone else does. It would have slowed down too much to focus on her reactions at that point but it does sort of cut short the showcase of her coming into her own there, which the tug of war fight was supposed to be part of.

Nice straw man you got there. Not at all blatant.
Or, it was a blatant joke.

Yes, there was. This is flat-out wrong no matter how you try to frame it.
Fair enough. I took it as she wasn't trying to redeem him as much as started to understand him and was justifying going to him as turning him, so I guess that's a redemption attempt then. It just wasn't a matter of her being motivated by redeeming him, it was a possibility in the air, not the goal. That's what I was taking that as.

And a lot of it focuses on what he did do and how it either didn't work, contradicted existing events or themes, or just plain sucked in the context of his own movie.
I'm intrigued by that one. What contradicted existing events and themes?

To be ignorant to that is to willfully ignore a lot of the very justifiable complaints people have about the movie. Otherwise you're reducing it to an argument that suits your own narrative but isn't relative to the overall opinion.
It does sort of seem like that was what started that line of discussion though. By claiming "a lot of people disagree" you're reducing the initial point about compelling additions someone else had to something that suits your narrative and idea of what the overall opinion is. It's actually kind of annoying to bother with an "overall opinion" at all when discussing anything. What is your individual opinion is far more interesting than comparing and contrasting against a group average opinion.

AkaPrimoKanyeWest wrote: View Post

No, he's right, Star Wars is a religion.

It's silly how it has actually come to that, but we can't ignore reality either.
Well. Damn. Thread closed, no religious or political talk.

Cuchulainn wrote: View Post

There is no ignoring this or just saying "It's a loud minority", nor is it a normal, healthy form of expression. There is a volatile, toxic ringworm infestation on the belly of this fandom that's starting to spread over the whole thing. And we need more people speaking up about it instead of excusing it or downplaying it.
The problem is the idea of a loud minority have more access to be heard than ever before. While there have always been people who'd act like that, the modern social media and internet culture setting just allows that kind of mentality to reinforce itself and repeat ad nauseam until they get more attention than anything else in the fandom, in any fandom. It's the worst case squeaky wheel syndrome, and it only grows because it's talked about at all.
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Old April 14th, 2019, 01:26 AM #3469
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Old April 14th, 2019, 03:14 AM #3470
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Important to her does not mean "because it must be someone connected to a past character." It was important to her, and then she grows from the truth of it, and the audience is supposed to follow along. It's important to the audience until it's not important to her, but the problem seems to be the audience not following her path once she accepts the truth and moves on. It's like there's a form of arrested development between the audience and character.
Once again, where are you getting this idea that what I said must mean she HAS to be connected to an existing character? I explicitly state that I DIDN'T think that in the very next line you quoted. Some people either expected or wanted that, sure, and their opinions are entirely valid, but that's not mine.

As for not "following her path"... it's because there's barely a scrap of one to follow. She doesn't "accept the truth and move on", immediately after that scene is over, which has zero emotional resonance for her because she continues on exactly as she had done prior to it, she carries on exactly the same way, before landing on the not-Hoth-at-all-because-it's-salt-you-see planet and lifting more rocks than you ever done seen before. As with everything with Rey's character in TLJ, there's no struggle.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

You said they set it up as a reveal though. Which, it still was, just not the reveal people expected. I was asking if they really put that much seeding into it beyond a basic backstory set up/reason for hero to be reluctant.
A reveal, and not a non-issue, which is what I'd originally said in a post that isn't the one you're quoting here. And yes, I'd argue that they did; they very clearly set it up as a mystery in The Force Awakens, both in flashback and her insistence on returning to Jaaku to wait for them. Of course it was seeded to be an important reveal.

Let me make it clear... again... that I had no problem with Rey's parents not being important, because the vast majority of Jedi's aren't, primarily because Jedi aren't supposed to be making babies anyway so the idea of a lineage of strong Force users isn't really a thing... outside of the Skywalkers, naturally. I have no problems with it being a red herring, of sorts, but I have issues with the delivery of the plot point. That's been my point the whole time.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

It does seem like the most common complaint about it, though. Her not being someone more important, a Kenobi, a Skywalker, just a no one who rose up. Every complaint seems to start on the idea they made it seem important but then some veer off into a "because it should have been this" territory.
Okay, but this is where I'm getting mixed signals from several people now; I'm getting told not to use examples of the "overall opinion", and instead to argue my own... but then the "overall opinion" will then be used against me, forcing me to answer on it. Which is it supposed to be?

Again, that's not my outlook on it. I don't care what "should have been", I care about "what happened and the way it happened", and I've explained why I find it an issue. It's worth noting though that if that IS the most common complaint you're seeing, then there clearly is something to that. I'm not arguing for an entire group of people, though.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

What gives it the sense of "lol nobody cares", the tone of which implies it's supposed to be a trick on the audience more than unexpected developments? There is a big twist, sure, and maybe there's a reliance on "didn't see that coming" but that only further fits the overarching point of stories and legends. I just can't see how "didn't see that coming" plays out as a mean trick the way it sounds like you're saying it did. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your problem with it.
Once again, you're applying the voice of the many to the voice of me. I don't consider it a "mean trick" because that's frankly ridiculous. If people get offended because they think a movie lied to them (like the Infinity War trailer, for example) then they've got more serious issues than simply watching movies.

Like's been said many times over, Rian Johnson's primary storytelling device in TLJ is subversion. That's not inherently a bad thing; speaking of the Avengers, there's a history of using it really well in those movies... albeit sparingly. That's not the case in TLJ; literally every major plot point is a "ooohhhhh SURPRISE GOTCHA"-type moment, which not only grows tiring even if they were smart twists, but severely hamper the story when they're just a constant barrage.

Luke getting his lightsaber back... Luke's X-Wing being foreshadowed... Leia being blown out into space... Finn and Rose's mission for the codebreaker... Poe's mutiny and Holdo's plan... Benicio del Toro's turn... Snoke's death... Rey's parents... Kylo's turn-nope-not-turn... Luke's projection and death...

All of these involve either a red herring setup or a straight-up "GOTCHA" moment. That's simply poor writing, because it's a very clear over-reliance on a trope that is best used in small doses. There's an increasing lack of impact in each consecutive fake-out that it becomes a "who cares" feeling by the end which yes, is where Rey's parentage falls.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Because she knew they were nobody and she wasn't some big secret character in a grand saga. It was her deep down denial she was being confronted with in that moment.

To be fair, after that development she goes immediately to save the Resistance and we don't really get much more time for her to have emotional responses. She ends with a lot on her plate, the way everyone else does. It would have slowed down too much to focus on her reactions at that point but it does sort of cut short the showcase of her coming into her own there, which the tug of war fight was supposed to be part of.
Which to me is excuse making for bad pacing and resolution. If they wanted it to feel like this reveal had weight, then they shouldn't have then immediately jumped into the final battle, or even included that final battle in a movie that was thirty minutes too long as it was.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Fair enough. I took it as she wasn't trying to redeem him as much as started to understand him and was justifying going to him as turning him, so I guess that's a redemption attempt then. It just wasn't a matter of her being motivated by redeeming him, it was a possibility in the air, not the goal. That's what I was taking that as.
Then you took it wrong, as I've explained with examples. She was going with the intention of turning him to tip the scales of the war.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

I'm intrigued by that one. What contradicted existing events and themes?
This has been discussed at length in the past, but elements such as never giving up, fighting for your ideals, believing in other people, and believing in hope were all either contradicted or handled with the finesse of a middle-school storytelling exercise.

Luke's entire driving character arc in the original trilogy was about never giving up, believing in himself, his friends and even his nasty bastard of a father who he had no reason to believe in. That was all very clearly torn down in this movie, which even Mark Hamill himself took great umbrage with, only to be cobbled together like piecing together a smashed vase using pieces of metal scaffold and some other vase that doesn't really fit together well. They tell, rather than show, with zero subtlety or nuance.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

It does sort of seem like that was what started that line of discussion though. By claiming "a lot of people disagree" you're reducing the initial point about compelling additions someone else had to something that suits your narrative and idea of what the overall opinion is. It's actually kind of annoying to bother with an "overall opinion" at all when discussing anything. What is your individual opinion is far more interesting than comparing and contrasting against a group average opinion.
See above for more details.

Titanium321 wrote: View Post

The problem is the idea of a loud minority have more access to be heard than ever before. While there have always been people who'd act like that, the modern social media and internet culture setting just allows that kind of mentality to reinforce itself and repeat ad nauseam until they get more attention than anything else in the fandom, in any fandom. It's the worst case squeaky wheel syndrome, and it only grows because it's talked about at all.
This, I actually agree with. It IS a loud minority of fans with the toxic views, and yes, they should be ignored. To tarnish the people that offer complaints about something with the same brush applied to them doesn't strengthen the opposing argument, and it devalues any and all discussion on a topic. Believe it or not I actually appreciate discussions LIKE this one, because it's primarily civil with a basis of understanding.

That's not purely a Star Wars thing, it's worth pointing out. That applies to every aspect of social discourse in the social media era.
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Old April 14th, 2019, 04:41 AM #3471
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Last year, Kelly Marie Tran experienced the worst of the toxic side of fandom, as she was trolled off of social media. But Friday, at the Episode IX panel, she experienced the best of the true side of fandom, receiving a standing ovation.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...230319560.html
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Old April 14th, 2019, 07:30 AM #3472
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GoldAnyRanger wrote: View Post

Last year, Kelly Marie Tran experienced the worst of the toxic side of fandom, as she was trolled off of social media. But Friday, at the Episode IX panel, she experienced the best of the true side of fandom, receiving a standing ovation.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...230319560.html
This is good to see. Jar Jar's actor recently shared the fact he almost committed suicide because of how overwhelming the backlash was against his character. Makes you wonder if he wouldn't have been driven to that point if he'd been given the same kind of emotional outreach we're seeing here.

What I was talking about earlier with how we need to do more to counter the fandom's toxicity? This is it.

Titanium321 wrote:
It's the worst case squeaky wheel syndrome, and it only grows because it's talked about at all.
What's important isn't the fact we're talking about it but how we talk about it. The only way people like that will disappear is if they're shunned and shamed. If we don't, that kind of toxic rhetoric spreads. I do agree that we shouldn't share videos or articles written/made by those kinds of people, but talking about them nonetheless is important. The reason stuff like this grows is we sort of casually go "Don't listen to them" and wave our hands when that's demonstrably not been enough. People gotta be more ardent and make it clear that harassing actresses and buying merchandise just to destroy it is unhealthy, socially unsettling behavior.

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Old April 14th, 2019, 09:22 AM #3473
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Will 'STAR WARS" be Rebooted if returns in the Theaters, years after "Rise of Skywalker"?
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Old April 14th, 2019, 09:24 AM #3474
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I think for the whole Rey versus destiny/nobody maybe a whole lot of people tend to compare with the now defunct Expanded Universe.

In this we saw the Legacy of the Skywalker shaped the Star Wars Galaxy from Anakin Skywalker to Cade Skywalker (900 years of Story just that). And seeing how the UE was a huge story telling that span thousand of years where everything is connected through destiny and parentage. Fans tend to want this new canon to be like that.

From a lot of people Star Wars is about Destiny and Parentage. A Nobody in Star Wars can't do much if it's legacy is nothing.

I don't know if you all get me ?
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Old April 14th, 2019, 09:25 AM #3475
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CamiloKufsRN2019 wrote: View Post

Will 'STAR WARS" be Rebooted if returns in the Theaters, years after "Rise of Skywalker"?
It's a waste of time rebooting the entire universe when it's easier just to tell a story somewhere else remote from everything in the previous movies.
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Old April 14th, 2019, 09:29 AM #3476
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Cuchulainn wrote: View Post

It's a waste of time rebooting the entire universe
Somewhere the original Expanded Universe stands in the rain like the Tenth Doctor...
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Old April 14th, 2019, 10:05 AM #3477
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Cameron Samurai wrote: View Post

Somewhere the original Expanded Universe stands in the rain like the Tenth Doctor...
That's not a complete reboot, though. That's the trimming of auxiliary source material that had little-to-no impact on the movie canon, which itself remains unchanged. They were asking if Star Wars would be rebooted after this movie and I'm saying no, they're not going to do that.
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Old April 14th, 2019, 11:21 AM #3478
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JaimeZeo wrote: View Post

Once again, where are you getting this idea that what I said must mean she HAS to be connected to an existing character? I explicitly state that I DIDN'T think that in the very next line you quoted. Some people either expected or wanted that, sure, and their opinions are entirely valid, but that's not mine.
Because what I said was "they set it up as important to her but not that there was a connection to anyone" and by saying "you contradict yourself there" it sounds like you are arguing being important must mean connected to someone. It was the wording, it was confusing.

By "anything big" I was leaning on the argument it had to be someone of note, an existing character or equivalent level reveal. It didn't set that up at all, just that it was something Rey was holding important to her, and yes, the audience should hold it important as a result. There was just no reason to expect it to be any existing character connection nor is the reveal it is no one of note really a problem either. It still gets its reveal and it still matters to Rey, but having the information out there also gives her the opening to let go. It doesn't matter who it was or how big/important of a reveal it was, the end point is the same, she can move on to the next stage now. The level of importance is there, the fact it's no one doesn't take away from that. Why would it?

I will admit though, there isn't enough emotional response time to it because of where it lands in the flow. But that's likely going to play a part of this new one, the way Luke dealing with his father and the certain point of view misdirection/retcon played out in Jedi. It does seem more like your problem is on the acting there if anything.

Okay, but this is where I'm getting mixed signals from several people now; I'm getting told not to use examples of the "overall opinion", and instead to argue my own... but then the "overall opinion" will then be used against me, forcing me to answer on it. Which is it supposed to be?
This isn't about using the overall opinion to define an individual's opinion though. That's an empty conversation when it's just "everyone else thought this way so I do too" excuses. That wasn't what you were doing though. You said you didn't think anyone had made the complaint "she had to be related", I was just pointing out a lot of people have made that complaint. In this case you don't need to nor are expected to justify the complaint, just why you would say no one is making it. I'm not interested in the overall opinion part of that complaint, just why you'd say no one makes it.

Which to me is excuse making for bad pacing and resolution. If they wanted it to feel like this reveal had weight, then they shouldn't have then immediately jumped into the final battle, or even included that final battle in a movie that was thirty minutes too long as it was.
I see that, it did have a pacing issue. I don't find it a problem writing wise or a weakness of over reliance on the "gotcha" moment, but I can see where you'd come to that conclusion. I actually thought those made it a more unique and interesting film considering how Star Wars usually plays out. It made me enjoy it more for the over reliance, but it did not help the pacing problem. Which may have been due to being partially a chase film.

This has been discussed at length in the past, but elements such as never giving up, fighting for your ideals, believing in other people, and believing in hope were all either contradicted or handled with the finesse of a middle-school storytelling exercise.
I can see that, but it was part of the ongoing story of time taking its toll and a generational change. But I guess I misunderstood, are you just referring to events where they never gave up or the constant message of hope was used as the events being contradicted? I thought you meant an actual moment was contradicted, not the theme of a moment. Like a continuity error.

To tarnish the people that offer complaints about something with the same brush applied to them doesn't strengthen the opposing argument, and it devalues any and all discussion on a topic. Believe it or not I actually appreciate discussions LIKE this one, because it's primarily civil with a basis of understanding.
I think another part of the problem is that people often inadvertently take criticism of the toxic side as also being pointed at them for being part of the same venn diagram of criticism of a subject. At no point should you ever assume you're being looked at like the really toxic people, unless you actually say those toxic things for the toxic reasons they do. Also, that you isn't entirely directed at you, but everyone in general who thinks a negative thought about something online. It's ok to be critical and have negative reactions, just avoid toxicity when you do it.

CamiloKufsRN2019 wrote: View Post

Will 'STAR WARS" be Rebooted if returns in the Theaters, years after "Rise of Skywalker"?
No. Just like it's never been rebooted in the decades in between each trilogy installment.

Remastered, though. Yeah, that'll be inevitable.
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Old April 14th, 2019, 11:24 AM #3479
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TeraMan
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GetTheeToABrewery wrote: View Post

The fact that a lot of people disagree with his handling of The Last Jedi is a perfectly logical explanation for the existence of said shit-talk.
No it's not.

"A lot of people disagreeing" isn't the reflection of any objective merit. The existence of people who feels otherwise shouldn't be invalidated just with someone brushing it aside with "so what? other people agree with my position!"

Once again: who cares what other people think? That shouldn't be a stance to reinforce your opinion.
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Old April 14th, 2019, 11:46 AM #3480
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> Cuchulainn
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Cuchulainn
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TeraMan wrote: View Post

"A lot of people disagreeing" isn't the reflection of any objective merit.
This. Argumentum ad populum. "50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong."
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