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Old July 30th, 2019, 02:34 AM #661
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I gotta say, I'm with Slowpokeing on this one, there's hundreds of applications for that tech that Thanos wouldn't even know are illusions, and even if he found out he'd be busy untangling them, leaving him exposed.

Scenario 1: Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian arrive on Earth at the beginning of the movie to retrieve the time stone from Strange. Neither of them have any powers to see through illusion tech, and could easily be distracted and defeated by Strange, Stark and Wong whilst they're fighting off illusions.

Scenario 2: Group cloaks themselves on Titan and ambushes him. "But muh soul stone!" yadayada, he's literally surprised when the rest of the team jump out from behind rocks, suffice to say he's not exactly checking for other people. They grab control of his gauntlet hand before he can blink, and subdue him much the way they do in the movie, except they don't start a fucking dialogue with him until the gauntlet is off and Strange has teleported away with it, or placed it in the mirror dimension etc.

Scenario 3: Hide Vision. Okay, so Stark was on Titan at the time, but if this is tech he took seriously, he'd have another pair of EDITH glasses at the facility, with one or two people given access, such as Banner. Aside from the very obvious military advantages it provides, the illusion tech would have been a great way to safeguard Shuri as she moves to remove the mind stone from Vision's head, keeping anybody out of the room long enough to destroy the mind stone. Or, fuck it, when Thanos arrives, just run a simulation that replicates Vision a thousand times. The soul stone wouldn't work, because Vision literally does not have a soul. Thanos would spend his time swiping at simulations that a co-ordinated attack from who's left (remember Scarlet Witch is on the field) could overpower him.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 05:28 AM #662
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Spoony Spoonerson wrote: View Post

I gotta say, I'm with Slowpokeing on this one, there's hundreds of applications for that tech that Thanos wouldn't even know are illusions, and even if he found out he'd be busy untangling them, leaving him exposed.

Scenario 1: Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian arrive on Earth at the beginning of the movie to retrieve the time stone from Strange. Neither of them have any powers to see through illusion tech, and could easily be distracted and defeated by Strange, Stark and Wong whilst they're fighting off illusions.

Scenario 2: Group cloaks themselves on Titan and ambushes him. "But muh soul stone!" yadayada, he's literally surprised when the rest of the team jump out from behind rocks, suffice to say he's not exactly checking for other people. They grab control of his gauntlet hand before he can blink, and subdue him much the way they do in the movie, except they don't start a fucking dialogue with him until the gauntlet is off and Strange has teleported away with it, or placed it in the mirror dimension etc.

Scenario 3: Hide Vision. Okay, so Stark was on Titan at the time, but if this is tech he took seriously, he'd have another pair of EDITH glasses at the facility, with one or two people given access, such as Banner. Aside from the very obvious military advantages it provides, the illusion tech would have been a great way to safeguard Shuri as she moves to remove the mind stone from Vision's head, keeping anybody out of the room long enough to destroy the mind stone. Or, fuck it, when Thanos arrives, just run a simulation that replicates Vision a thousand times. The soul stone wouldn't work, because Vision literally does not have a soul. Thanos would spend his time swiping at simulations that a co-ordinated attack from who's left (remember Scarlet Witch is on the field) could overpower him.
Scenario 1: Maw has abilities, we have no idea what they're fully capable of. The tech requires having illusions preprogrammed. Their appearance was a surprise, and it was only cause Tony had a built in suit at that point that he was any use. He'd also have to call in drones to enable the illusions, which sure he could call, but it's not impossible to believe that Maw and Obsidian would've figures out whatever illusions Tony threw at them were just that, illusions. It's not really so cut and dry.

Scenario 2: So basically they follow the same plan, except their hiding place is a little better cause they're cloaked in an illusion. That's assuming that Tony can even project an illusion decent enough on Titan when all he had was his suit. Again, preprogrammed. And sure, you /may/ be able to argue that Tony is super smart so there's a chance he could cobble together a basic illusion of some Titan rocks. But then once they started attacking, the illusions wouldn't have really mattered.

Scenario 3: Tony was in space, and given the state of the Avengers he probably wasn't sharing that tech. Not even with T'Challa. So that alone would make it unusable. But lets say they somehow had it, and were somehow able to program some suitable illusions. Only takes one hit to realize its not real. And clearly Thanos at least had a general idea where Vision or likely the mind stone, was. And even if they were say, able to make a simple standing copy of Vision, and had the drones or tech otherwise to populate an area with multiple copies, you still would've run into the trouble of them being illusions and easily found out. Especially in a war zone where there're hundreds of enemies and such going around. Plenty to ruin the illusions. But, considering Thanos came a bit later, lets say there weren't than many people around. Basically just the Avengers and him. Vision had gone off anyways, so he'd be on the field. And really all the copies would do is probably cause Thanos to stop time or use the reality stone to create copies of himself or something to distract the heroes. If they're also distracted by illusions then they can't coordinate an attack on the real Thanos while he tries to hunt the real Vision.

Basically, the illusion tech wouldn't have just made the movie super easy or anything. Just would've been a new wrinkle if you will, maybe a slight obstacle in some cases. But wouldn't have been the monumental game changer some of you guys feel it would be.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 08:34 AM #663
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Who has the direction? Stark? Stark's stuck on Titan with Strange when that goes down, he can't use EDITH from there, that's the whole problem. He's cut off from Earth.
Strange could tell him


Sure, but then it'd be totally wasted on Titan when Thanos is using the Soul Stone. The entire premise you're pitching here requires an entirely different series of events to take place for the tech to be useful against Thanos. That's all I'm trying to get across really. The scenario needs to be different than what went down in the films to work, not just Stark having BARF in his suit ahead of time, but every plot moment needs to be changed to make it work.

And that all relies on the idea the Black Order or Thanos wouldn't be able to suss it out the way Parker did.
It can greatly enhance the chance because you can suckerpunch Thanos and his men.

Peter took a LONG way to find out, even in the end when he realized there is illusion, he still almost got caught out by it and didn't realize Mysterio was framing him at the same time.

Alitain wrote: View Post

Scenario 1: Maw has abilities, we have no idea what they're fully capable of. The tech requires having illusions preprogrammed. Their appearance was a surprise, and it was only cause Tony had a built in suit at that point that he was any use. He'd also have to call in drones to enable the illusions, which sure he could call, but it's not impossible to believe that Maw and Obsidian would've figures out whatever illusions Tony threw at them were just that, illusions. It's not really so cut and dry.
The main problem is not ability, but can they realize there is something wrong and trigger their ability. If the Skrull can be fooled, I don't see Maw can figure it out.

Scenario 2: So basically they follow the same plan, except their hiding place is a little better cause they're cloaked in an illusion. That's assuming that Tony can even project an illusion decent enough on Titan when all he had was his suit. Again, preprogrammed. And sure, you /may/ be able to argue that Tony is super smart so there's a chance he could cobble together a basic illusion of some Titan rocks.
And also remember Strange has the Time Stone to foresee the outcome.

But then once they started attacking, the illusions wouldn't have really mattered.
No, it would have mattered a lot, it can create fake image of them and others to mislead Thanos, you can see Mysterio was able to use it to distract Peter.

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Only takes one hit to realize its not real.
Why? How can you destroy what does not exist? The projection can be put elsewhere.

And clearly Thanos at least had a general idea where Vision or likely the mind stone, was. And even if they were say, able to make a simple standing copy of Vision, and had the drones or tech otherwise to populate an area with multiple copies, you still would've run into the trouble of them being illusions and easily found out.
No, Thanos didn't even know he doesn't have the stones in Endgame.

Especially in a war zone where there're hundreds of enemies and such going around. Plenty to ruin the illusions. But, considering Thanos came a bit later, lets say there weren't than many people around. Basically just the Avengers and him. Vision had gone off anyways, so he'd be on the field. And really all the copies would do is probably cause Thanos to stop time or use the reality stone to create copies of himself or something to distract the heroes. If they're also distracted by illusions then they can't coordinate an attack on the real Thanos while he tries to hunt the real Vision.
Yes, came a bit later, which means the illusion will be used to finish his army, and everyone can be dealing with him.


Basically, the illusion tech wouldn't have just made the movie super easy or anything. Just would've been a new wrinkle if you will, maybe a slight obstacle in some cases. But wouldn't have been the monumental game changer some of you guys feel it would be.
It would if you know how to use it.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 08:46 AM #664
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Alitain wrote: View Post

Scenario 1: Maw has abilities, we have no idea what they're fully capable of. The tech requires having illusions preprogrammed. Their appearance was a surprise, and it was only cause Tony had a built in suit at that point that he was any use. He'd also have to call in drones to enable the illusions, which sure he could call, but it's not impossible to believe that Maw and Obsidian would've figures out whatever illusions Tony threw at them were just that, illusions. It's not really so cut and dry.

Scenario 2: So basically they follow the same plan, except their hiding place is a little better cause they're cloaked in an illusion. That's assuming that Tony can even project an illusion decent enough on Titan when all he had was his suit. Again, preprogrammed. And sure, you /may/ be able to argue that Tony is super smart so there's a chance he could cobble together a basic illusion of some Titan rocks. But then once they started attacking, the illusions wouldn't have really mattered.

Scenario 3: Tony was in space, and given the state of the Avengers he probably wasn't sharing that tech. Not even with T'Challa. So that alone would make it unusable. But lets say they somehow had it, and were somehow able to program some suitable illusions. Only takes one hit to realize its not real. And clearly Thanos at least had a general idea where Vision or likely the mind stone, was. And even if they were say, able to make a simple standing copy of Vision, and had the drones or tech otherwise to populate an area with multiple copies, you still would've run into the trouble of them being illusions and easily found out. Especially in a war zone where there're hundreds of enemies and such going around. Plenty to ruin the illusions. But, considering Thanos came a bit later, lets say there weren't than many people around. Basically just the Avengers and him. Vision had gone off anyways, so he'd be on the field. And really all the copies would do is probably cause Thanos to stop time or use the reality stone to create copies of himself or something to distract the heroes. If they're also distracted by illusions then they can't coordinate an attack on the real Thanos while he tries to hunt the real Vision.

Basically, the illusion tech wouldn't have just made the movie super easy or anything. Just would've been a new wrinkle if you will, maybe a slight obstacle in some cases. But wouldn't have been the monumental game changer some of you guys feel it would be.
At the moment, Maw's abilities seem only towards telekinesis, in the way that he isn't limited by line of sight, but he has to picture what he's moving, such as the way he's able to lift things from underground etc. In this scenario, he'd be attempting to move things that aren't there. And yes, Tony would have to call the drones, but given the speed he's able to have Hulkbuster shot out of the sky, that should not be a problem.

It makes things a lot different, as the team would be able to be literally right next to Thanos, before revealing themselves, provided nobody messes up etc. That's the difference between attacking him from a distance, giving him time to use the gauntlet, and just straight-up powers of invisibility.

Mm, this is conjecture on my part, but Tony doesn't really seem to lock down his tech. Rhodey is able to just jump into a suit like a stolen bike in Iron Man 2, and even as late as Infinity War, Banner is able to use Hulkbuster despite never having used one in his life. The only reason Stark locked the EDITH goggles to Parker was because he would no longer be around. It would stand to reason that even though Tony's trust is gone with certain people, Rhodey or Banner in particular would have access. And no, it does not take one hit to realise the illusions aren't real, Spider-Man fought them twice and still hadn't twigged because the damage was real. That's kind of why Mysterio almost won, because his illusions were so flawless that he could attack an entire city and literally nobody guessed. But supposing these... super smart Outriders figured out the ruse, it's still a fucking army of flying machine gun drones. Y'all telling me they can't turn the tide of battle? I realise that's a slightly different argument to the illusions, but that's the "worst case" scenario, and it's still game-changing. You have a good point about Thanos, and the stones 'could' help if he so chose, though in the movies we see him pretty content to punch and kick through most of it.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 08:52 AM #665
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Spoony Spoonerson wrote: View Post

Mm, this is conjecture on my part, but Tony doesn't really seem to lock down his tech. Rhodey is able to just jump into a suit like a stolen bike in Iron Man 2, and even as late as Infinity War, Banner is able to use Hulkbuster despite never having used one in his life. The only reason Stark locked the EDITH goggles to Parker was because he would no longer be around. It would stand to reason that even though Tony's trust is gone with certain people, Rhodey or Banner in particular would have access. And no, it does not take one hit to realise the illusions aren't real, Spider-Man fought them twice and still hadn't twigged because the damage was real. That's kind of why Mysterio almost won, because his illusions were so flawless that he could attack an entire city and literally nobody guessed. But supposing these... super smart Outriders figured out the ruse, it's still a fucking army of flying machine gun drones. Y'all telling me they can't turn the tide of battle? I realise that's a slightly different argument to the illusions, but that's the "worst case" scenario, and it's still game-changing. You have a good point about Thanos, and the stones 'could' help if he so chose, though in the movies we see him pretty content to punch and kick through most of it.
The Outriders are just mindless minions, I don't see them figuring it out. Simple illusion would drive them mad and attack each other in chaos.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 09:59 AM #666
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Slowpokeking wrote: View Post

Strange could tell him
When though? Before he even knows Thanos is coming to Earth?

It can greatly enhance the chance because you can suckerpunch Thanos and his men.

Peter took a LONG way to find out, even in the end when he realized there is illusion, he still almost got caught out by it and didn't realize Mysterio was framing him at the same time.
Yeah, no I get the idea behind how you'd be able to use EDITH that way. Mysterio's got a brilliant idea there but uses it for selfish reasons instead of the suit of Armor for the whole world Stark clearly meant Parker to have.

But the way the movie plays out, Thanos and his forces arriving are themselves a suckerpunch. To make EDITH work, you need to know Thanos is coming and how to use it against him, you need prep time. Once Hulk gets to Earth and warns everyone things are moving too fast to do anything like that.

Peter takes a long time to figure it out because he's a naive young kid who's optimistic he just found the next Iron Man and can escape his responsibility finally. Once he's in the illusions and knows what's happening he figures it out quickly. The downside to using it as a trap is once its in use, it's now vulnerable to being figured out at all. It doesn't matter how long it takes, unless you get the killing blow in on Thanos during that time, you're just getting in his way.

The main problem is not ability, but can they realize there is something wrong and trigger their ability. If the Skrull can be fooled, I don't see Maw can figure it out..
I don't know why you think it's so shocking he fooled the Skrull. The Skrull are just regular people who shapeshift, they can be duped and lied to. Heck, that's their entire backstory, getting lied to about save refuge and being assaulted by the Kree as a result. The actual implication of that scene is that the real Fury would never have fallen for it, anyway. Ebony Maw had psychic powers, it gives him even more of an edge.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 12:31 PM #667
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

When though? Before he even knows Thanos is coming to Earth?
The fight on Titan I was mentioning.


Yeah, no I get the idea behind how you'd be able to use EDITH that way. Mysterio's got a brilliant idea there but uses it for selfish reasons instead of the suit of Armor for the whole world Stark clearly meant Parker to have.
Many important technology are invented by jerks or even bad people, but it's benefiting the world, doesn't matter.


But the way the movie plays out, Thanos and his forces arriving are themselves a suckerpunch. To make EDITH work, you need to know Thanos is coming and how to use it against him, you need prep time. Once Hulk gets to Earth and warns everyone things are moving too fast to do anything like that.
They already knew it during the Wakanda encounter.

Peter takes a long time to figure it out because he's a naive young kid who's optimistic he just found the next Iron Man and can escape his responsibility finally. Once he's in the illusions and knows what's happening he figures it out quickly. The downside to using it as a trap is once its in use, it's now vulnerable to being figured out at all. It doesn't matter how long it takes, unless you get the killing blow in on Thanos during that time, you're just getting in his way.
Not just Peter, the Skrull couple and nearly everyone, including the SHIELD agents couldn't figure out a thing for a while. Remember Peter is naive but still a tech genius and a superhero who had fought in the war VS Thanos.

Peter only figured it out when he found the projector, and even though he got his ass kicked badly in the encounter.

I don't know why you think it's so shocking he fooled the Skrull. The Skrull are just regular people who shapeshift, they can be duped and lied to. Heck, that's their entire backstory, getting lied to about save refuge and being assaulted by the Kree as a result. The actual implication of that scene is that the real Fury would never have fallen for it, anyway. Ebony Maw had psychic powers, it gives him even more of an edge.
And why couldn't Thanos be fooled? Thanos doesn't have special power all day. He wasn't aware of the ambush on Titan, he wasn't aware of the trick in Endgame. What makes you believe he could sense illusion without even realizing there are illusion?

I don't see it, illusion is just so scary, as long as the user can make it convincing during the right time it's very hard to figure out. If Fury could figure it out why would he not realize SHIELD was filled with Hydra agents right under his nose? He is human, he was fooled by the Skrull in the Captain Marvel movie, why wouldn't he be fooled by even more advanced illusion?

Ebony Maw had psychic powers so what, what makes you believe he could figure it out when he doesn't even realize there is illusion around him?

Everyone can be suckerpunched when it's plotted right unless they are all knowing all the time, and the illusion projector was a HUGE weapon to enhance it.



Also the Skrull are not some regular ppl who can shapeshift, especially not Talos.

He was able to infiltrate into SHIELD as a high rank member in short time, that's very high level of skill, it doesn't just require shapeshifting.

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Old July 30th, 2019, 02:26 PM #668
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Slowpokeking wrote: View Post

And also remember Strange has the Time Stone to foresee the outcome.

No, it would have mattered a lot, it can create fake image of them and others to mislead Thanos, you can see Mysterio was able to use it to distract Peter.

Why? How can you destroy what does not exist? The projection can be put elsewhere.

No, Thanos didn't even know he doesn't have the stones in Endgame.

Yes, came a bit later, which means the illusion will be used to finish his army, and everyone can be dealing with him.
Yes, and look how well the time stone turned out for him? One scenario in which they won. And again, once someone hits the projection they'll know it's not real. Sure, maybe it distracts him a little bit but enough to let Tony & Co. win? Doubtful. This is Thanos, once multiple versions of Tony or anyone start popping up he'll eventually just do an area effect attack which ruins it and then he's good again. Hell, he hit Tony with a /moon/, not to mention peppered the whole area with debris. That would've killed the illusions alone. And again, this is plainly ignoring the lack of suitable tech to even sustain these illusions on Titan, but eventually Tony's suit gave out. The nanos couldn't even keep his own suit together, let alone sustaining any kind of illusions. And again, would've needed to program said illusions to do ANY kind of action. To even try and distract Thanos they would've had to be jumping at him and at least looking like they were going to attack. While potentially not impossible, still seems likely there wasn't enough time to actually make up any of that before Thanos arrived.

Thanos' army came to Wakanda in IW. They knew where to go to get the mind stone, that was clear.

The beasts of Thanos' army probably wouldn't have been all that hindered. They attack, nothing is there, they move on. Not to mention generally in fiction animals aren't often fooled by illusions because they also base their judgement on their other senses like smell. And those illusions wouldn't past muster. Even then, they basically had the army handled by the time Thanos showed up, hence most of them beelining for him. To be honest, having Okoye and Sam and all attack wouldn't have made much of a difference. A little more action I guess, but over all the point was Thanos was exceptionally powerful and it took Thor to even make a dent in him.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 03:47 PM #669
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Alitain wrote: View Post

Yes, and look how well the time stone turned out for him? One scenario in which they won.
Because atm Tony dismissed the device. With it, it's a different story.

And again, once someone hits the projection they'll know it's not real.
Small fake image is not always in the same place with the illusion, the projector is hided, how is it going to be hit for certain.

And you can see Spider Man hit a projector but the Fire Elemental is still there without anyone to find out. So one projector gets hit doesn't mean the illusion will be gone.


Sure, maybe it distracts him a little bit but enough to let Tony & Co. win? Doubtful. This is Thanos, once multiple versions of Tony or anyone start popping up he'll eventually just do an area effect attack which ruins it and then he's good again.
Who said it has to be multiple Tony? Just one fake image but always dodge his attack. At the same time, all they need to do is let Strange get close and use the Time Stone to turn Thanos into dust.

And again, this is plainly ignoring the lack of suitable tech to even sustain these illusions on Titan, but eventually Tony's suit gave out. The nanos couldn't even keep his own suit together, let alone sustaining any kind of illusions. And again, would've needed to program said illusions to do ANY kind of action. To even try and distract Thanos they would've had to be jumping at him and at least looking like they were going to attack. While potentially not impossible, still seems likely there wasn't enough time to actually make up any of that before Thanos arrived.
The illusion can change quickly in short time as we seen in the encounter, it's not going to do damage, but distract and hide the real attack.

Also since the drones could disguise the elemental attack without a problem, I don't see why would it fail to mimic Tony's attack.

Thanos' army came to Wakanda in IW. They knew where to go to get the mind stone, that was clear.
Not really, illusion can mislead them, illusion can create great chaos.

The beasts of Thanos' army probably wouldn't have been all that hindered. They attack, nothing is there, they move on.
Nothing? Illusion would cause them to attack each other. They would saw enemy but in truth it's their own, so they would attack each other madly.

Not to mention generally in fiction animals aren't often fooled by illusions because they also base their judgement on their other senses like smell.
And the illusion is not just image, it does confuse sound and even touch. We saw the elementals got close and nobody ever figure it out.

Peter wasn't even aware a bullet train was coming to his way which means the illusion could not create sound, but also hide it.

And those illusions wouldn't past muster. Even then, they basically had the army handled by the time Thanos showed up, hence most of them beelining for him. To be honest, having Okoye and Sam and all attack wouldn't have made much of a difference. A little more action I guess, but over all the point was Thanos was exceptionally powerful and it took Thor to even make a dent in him.
Why? The army in great chaos would let the heroes be able to focus their hand on Thanos, which means more time=Thor comes and kill Thanos before he got 6.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 10:23 PM #670
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Slowpokeking wrote: View Post

The fight on Titan I was mentioning.
Where Tony is trapped with Strange, how does telling him to use EDITH there help?

They already knew it during the Wakanda encounter.
When they're all fighting his oncoming forces? Where Tony has no way of contacting them to use the device or where to get it in time to set up for the battle? Remember, when the Avengers get to Wakanda, the Black Order arrives not long after. There's no prep time there. That's what I'm getting at. The time frame in Infinity War doesn't work for your idea. It's not that it couldn't work, just that it would have needed a lot more time and different events to play out and for the right variables to happen for Thanos and his forces to fall for it.

He was able to infiltrate into SHIELD as a high rank member in short time, that's very high level of skill, it doesn't just require shapeshifting.
In fairness, they literally showed that's all he had to do to sneak in. In Far from Home we find out he just fell for it because the same reason everyone falls for it as beck explains. It's the narrative people want to see now.
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Old July 31st, 2019, 09:41 AM #671
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Where Tony is trapped with Strange, how does telling him to use EDITH there help?
EDITH is not required to create illusion.



When they're all fighting his oncoming forces? Where Tony has no way of contacting them to use the device or where to get it in time to set up for the battle? Remember, when the Avengers get to Wakanda, the Black Order arrives not long after. There's no prep time there. That's what I'm getting at. The time frame in Infinity War doesn't work for your idea. It's not that it couldn't work, just that it would have needed a lot more time and different events to play out and for the right variables to happen for Thanos and his forces to fall for it.
The illusion can easily finish Thanos' army by creating illusion to let them attack each other.

It works easily as long as they know how to use the tech.

In fairness, they literally showed that's all he had to do to sneak in. In Far from Home we find out he just fell for it because the same reason everyone falls for it as beck explains. It's the narrative people want to see now.
Sneak into SHIELD is not a easy task, and not being discovered is another task.

By the way, I think Mysterio's crew were not caught in the end? They might be plotting something, I feel weird when Peter got EDITH back but didn't need any confirmation. His code was used to frame him as well.
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Old July 31st, 2019, 08:18 PM #672
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Slowpokeking wrote: View Post

The illusion can easily finish Thanos' army by creating illusion to let them attack each other.

It works easily as long as they know how to use the tech.
To make Thanos' army attack themselves with illusions they would've needed large scale amount of drones to cover the entire battleground. On top of that they would've needed to project illusions upon each individual enemy and keep the illusion on it in order to trick another enemy to attack. Also we don't necessarily know how their senses work, and if they'd be able to tell by scent or whatever if the thing they were looking at smelled like a fellow whatever, or an enemy.

It's not as easy as just flipping a switching and suddenly the area is populated by soldier clones and thus Thanos' army would attack and of course strike their fellow companions. Again, you ignore the fact that any illusions take time and effort to build. Just like CG in movies, you need to build it all and create it. Sure, you can make duplicate soldiers by just copy/pasting one but you still need to create everything that has to be an illusion There just isn't that kind of time in this movie, along with the other issues that've been pointed out.

By the way, I think Mysterio's crew were not caught in the end? They might be plotting something, I feel weird when Peter got EDITH back but didn't need any confirmation. His code was used to frame him as well.
No, Mysterio's crew wasn't caught. Hence them releasing the footage that frames Peter for Beck's murder. His code wasn't used to frame him though, it was footage shot and edited by Mysterio's team(and Mysterio himself at some point no doubt), that framed him.
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Old July 31st, 2019, 09:21 PM #673
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Slowpokeking wrote: View Post

EDITH is not required to create illusion.
How does telling him to create an illusion then help then? Or do you mean just in that fight, Tony could have used it if he had the tech with him? Doesn't making it more effective require EDITH though? Doesn't the Soul Stone trick still get in his way?

It works easily as long as they know how to use the tech.
Yeah, the point is the way the events in the movie happen means they wouldn't know how or when to use the tech even if Tony had it ready for that kind of use at the time. I agree it would be a good tool to use, but the flow of Infinity War doesn't let it work that way that time. That's all I'm trying to say, it doesn't work with how that movie flowed.
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Old August 2nd, 2019, 06:24 PM #674
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Alitain wrote: View Post

To make Thanos' army attack themselves with illusions they would've needed large scale amount of drones to cover the entire battleground. On top of that they would've needed to project illusions upon each individual enemy and keep the illusion on it in order to trick another enemy to attack. Also we don't necessarily know how their senses work, and if they'd be able to tell by scent or whatever if the thing they were looking at smelled like a fellow whatever, or an enemy.
Not really, they are low intelligent beasts, as long as you attack some of them they will be in chaos like animals. Even human armies would crumble quickly in chaos if they were attacked from nowhere with unknown enemy.

If the Skrulls can be fooled, of course the others can be.

It's not as easy as just flipping a switching and suddenly the area is populated by soldier clones and thus Thanos' army would attack and of course strike their fellow companions. Again, you ignore the fact that any illusions take time and effort to build. Just like CG in movies, you need to build it all and create it. Sure, you can make duplicate soldiers by just copy/pasting one but you still need to create everything that has to be an illusion There just isn't that kind of time in this movie, along with the other issues that've been pointed out.
It is based on their intelligence.

Not at all, Beck was able to switch very quickly in his first encounter against Spider Man. He also could create a image of his own in short time in the end.
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Old August 2nd, 2019, 08:05 PM #675
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Slowpokeking wrote: View Post

If the Skrulls can be fooled, of course the others can be.
Skrulls can be just as tricked as anyone. They aren't special illusion seers or anything, they just shapeshifters and are good at copying people. Nothing about their powerset implies some kind of extra intelligence to avoid falling for traps or tricks, they in fact do this on multiple occasions. Down to the individual you could find someone more suspicious and questioning the story, but Talos as far as we know isn't that kind of person. He's not even especially gifted as a spy, he ends up having to come clean when he realizes he can't get his way with duplicity in Capt Marvel. Here, he just fell for Beck's plot like J Jonah Jameson did.

It is based on their intelligence.

Not at all, Beck was able to switch very quickly in his first encounter against Spider Man. He also could create a image of his own in short time in the end.
They go out of their way to explain how long and hard it was to prep for these encounters and how everything was especially timed and worked out to function otherwise the effects fail. It's improvising that leads to trouble.
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Old August 2nd, 2019, 10:07 PM #676
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We haven't really been introduced into the Skrulls powers yet. They can copy people. However in the comics they just don't copy people. They insert their dna and memories into them. That way they can fully take on the personalities of the people they are copying. They also can insert powersets into their genetics. Since they are deviants they can are easily alter their dna.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 02:07 AM #677
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]^ I suppose in the Eternals movie they are really going to debuts the SKrulls and Kree ! Since they had a some kind of connection with the Eternals
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 04:39 AM #678
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christopherjohn wrote: View Post

We haven't really been introduced into the Skrulls powers yet. They can copy people. However in the comics they just don't copy people. They insert their dna and memories into them. That way they can fully take on the personalities of the people they are copying. They also can insert powersets into their genetics. Since they are deviants they can are easily alter their dna.
Pretty sure all of this was stated in Captain Marvel - Skrulls can imitate up to the DNA level and have access to short-term memories, but not long-term ones, which is how Fury was able to recognize Talos under disguise.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 05:07 AM #679
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AtoMan wrote: View Post

Pretty sure all of this was stated in Captain Marvel - Skrulls can imitate up to the DNA level and have access to short-term memories, but not long-term ones, which is how Fury was able to recognize Talos under disguise.
In the comics they can go beyond short term. It can even be screwed up like the Skrull Captain Marvel (Mar'Vell) he ended up losing his Skrull personality altogether.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 07:55 AM #680
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The base level comic book power is shapeshifting, anything else requires actual genetic engineering and tinkering around from an external source. Adding super powers and memory implants are not just something they can do on their own. However, the MCU actually nerfed the Skrulls a little, adding in the need to "sim" someone, copying someone they see and getting a brief short term memory scan. Whereas comics Skrulls can turn into whatever they imagine, including creating bladed weapons out of limbs and changing size entirely, but the memory bit doesn't really exist for them either.
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