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View Poll Results: Favorite Disney Princess
Snow White 6 6.59%
Snow White
6 6.59%
Cinderella 12 13.19%
Cinderella
12 13.19%
Aurora 7 7.69%
Aurora
7 7.69%
Ariel 24 26.37%
Ariel
24 26.37%
Belle 21 23.08%
Belle
21 23.08%
Jasmine 30 32.97%
Jasmine
30 32.97%
Pocahontas 5 5.49%
Pocahontas
5 5.49%
Mulan 23 25.27%
Mulan
23 25.27%
Tiana 13 14.29%
Tiana
13 14.29%
Rapunzel 15 16.48%
Rapunzel
15 16.48%
Merida 5 5.49%
Merida
5 5.49%
Anna 11 12.09%
Anna
11 12.09%
Elsa 19 20.88%
Elsa
19 20.88%
Multiple Choice Poll. Votes: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 3rd, 2015, 05:50 PM #81
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

I'm very mixed about the Princess line. On one hand, I do like that the newer princesses are good role models, particularly Merida, but the older archetypical Disney Princesses are just a mess and not something girls should aspire to or look up to. That comes down to just a difference in time of creation, sure, but also they are the lead iconic ones and there was that mess of when they brought Merida in and made her look like a classic Disney princess in clean clothes and makeup not the wild bad ass she was.
You know comments like this always bother me. Why are the older princesses a mess? Why shouldn't girls look up to them? What's wrong with looking up to a princess who's able to find the strength to smile and sing after surviving an assassination attempt and later manages to find a place where the residents don't let her stay out of pity, instead she earns her keep and also whips them into shape in the process? (Snow White)

What's wrong with looking up to a princess who stays positive in a bad situation, treats all people the way she would want to be treated, makes the best out of her situation and never complains at the hurdles life throws at her? (Cinderella) Or princess who's just a sweet girl, and reluctantly accepts her duty as a princess and obeys her mother figures? (Aurora) Or a princess who goes after her dream, she's eager to explore and learn new things and perfectly capable of taking care of herself? (Ariel)

Of course I don't think I need to defend the rest. Though, what makes Merida so badass? Because she rides a horse and shoots arrows? All she ever shoots is targets and when push come to shove and it's time for Merida to actually be heroic, she needs to be rescued by her mother or her triplet brothers, that happened THREE TIMES. That's more than any other princess, including the older ones. So yeah, I really don't like Merida, she's overrated.

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Old April 4th, 2015, 09:20 PM #82
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JNTA1234 wrote: View Post

You know comments like this always bother me. Why are the older princesses a mess? Why shouldn't girls look up to them? What's wrong with looking up to a princess who's able to find the strength to smile and sing after surviving an assassination attempt and later manages to find a place where the residents don't let her stay out of pity, instead she earns her keep and also whips them into shape in the process? (Snow White)

What's wrong with looking up to a princess who stays positive in a bad situation, treats all people the way she would want to be treated, makes the best out of her situation and never complains at the hurdles life throws at her? (Cinderella) Or princess who's just a sweet girl, and reluctantly accepts her duty as a princess and obeys her mother figures? (Aurora) Or a princess who goes after her dream, she's eager to explore and learn new things and perfectly capable of taking care of herself? (Ariel)

Of course I don't think I need to defend the rest. Though, what makes Merida so badass? Because she rides a horse and shoots arrows? All she ever shoots is targets and when push come to shove and it's time for Merida to actually be heroic, she needs to be rescued by her mother or her triplet brothers, that happened THREE TIMES. That's more than any other princess, including the older ones. So yeah, I really don't like Merida, she's overrated.

I feel ya brotha, I really do. Comments like what you're criticizing seem to be the "cool" thing nowadays. The older Princesses don't fit the modern "female badass" trope, so therefore they are now "inferior".
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Old April 4th, 2015, 11:14 PM #83
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JNTA1234 wrote: View Post

You know comments like this always bother me. Why are the older princesses a mess? Why shouldn't girls look up to them? What's wrong with looking up to a princess who's able to find the strength to smile and sing after surviving an assassination attempt and later manages to find a place where the residents don't let her stay out of pity, instead she earns her keep and also whips them into shape in the process? (Snow White)
Because the bigger, more prominent message in those tales is "Girls need a Prince Charming to rescue them" and it's primarily a product of the times so I usually ignore it but really can't allow myself to feel comfortable with the idea little girls look up to that mentality.

What's wrong with looking up to a princess who stays positive in a bad situation, treats all people the way she would want to be treated, makes the best out of her situation and never complains at the hurdles life throws at her? (Cinderella) Or princess who's just a sweet girl, and reluctantly accepts her duty as a princess and obeys her mother figures? (Aurora) Or a princess who goes after her dream, she's eager to explore and learn new things and perfectly capable of taking care of herself? (Ariel)
Staying positive isn't the part being looked up to.

And actually, yeah, in context there's a huge problem with looking up to Aurora's reluctantly accepting her duty there. Or Ariel's message of "literally change everything about yourself and abandon your history for the first man you meet and even after beating the bad guy continue to abandon your entire identity for the man" Also, ultimately Ariel wasn't capable of taking care of herself.

It's not that there aren't positives to these Princesses, which is why they can even be looked up to at all. It's that the negatives outweigh them.

Of course I don't think I need to defend the rest. Though, what makes Merida so badass? Because she rides a horse and shoots arrows? All she ever shoots is targets and when push come to shove and it's time for Merida to actually be heroic, she needs to be rescued by her mother or her triplet brothers, that happened THREE TIMES. That's more than any other princess, including the older ones. So yeah, I really don't like Merida, she's overrated.
Because Merida is at the core of the character herself. She knows who she is, what she wants, and while being willing to bend to others to make them happy, she is truly confidence and self esteem characterized. It's not about the deed but the personality. She represented the value of "knowing and loving oneself" and that is something to be respected and looked up to before any action heroics or adventuring.

Basically it's about teaching kids to be an individual and a full person before anything else. Not telling them to wait for their prince charming to come to the rescue.

Batfan19 wrote: View Post

I feel ya brotha, I really do. Comments like what you're criticizing seem to be the "cool" thing nowadays. The older Princesses don't fit the modern "female badass" trope, so therefore they are now "inferior".
They don't have to be badasses. They have to be full characters to model a role around. That's the ultimate problem, the original Princesses really weren't much for personalities. They were just the same generic girl in different situations. The main difference is the later princesses have different personalities, are fully developed characters that go through arcs and changes. The original princesses stay the same character the whole time, never grow, and the only difference in the end is they wind up married to someone they just met.

Here's a question since you don't like the idea of criticizing the older princesses for whatever reason. So why do you think they should be role models?
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Old April 6th, 2015, 07:25 AM #84
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Because the bigger, more prominent message in those tales is "Girls need a Prince Charming to rescue them" and it's primarily a product of the times so I usually ignore it but really can't allow myself to feel comfortable with the idea little girls look up to that mentality.
I really don't see that especially considering Princes are BARELY in their movies in Snow White and Cinderella's case. Cinderella wasn't even interested in finding a prince. I don't see that at all, the princes are just a common thread in their stories. If ask me the theme is "Keeping a positive attitude in a grim situation". Or maybe, "Girls need dwarves, mice and fairies to rescue them" if any rescuing must me mentioned.

Staying positive isn't the part being looked up to.

And actually, yeah, in context there's a huge problem with looking up to Aurora's reluctantly accepting her duty there. Or Ariel's message of "literally change everything about yourself and abandon your history for the first man you meet and even after beating the bad guy continue to abandon your entire identity for the man" Also, ultimately Ariel wasn't capable of taking care of herself.
Well it's the franchise that promotes the message of romance not the movies. I like I said how the franchise turns them to barbies, I hate that. I like the unique characters that appear in the films.

How is Aurora accepting her duty a princess a problem? And Ariel didn't abandon her identity. She changed her physical self but she was still the same bubbly, curious, adventurous individual. And she wasn't doing it JUST for a man, when she became human she was paying attention to all the wonders of the human world as well as Eric. I'd say it became 50/50 about her dream and about him.

It's not that there aren't positives to these Princesses, which is why they can even be looked up to at all. It's that the negatives outweigh them.
Well we just have to agree to disagree on that.


Because Merida is at the core of the character herself. She knows who she is, what she wants, and while being willing to bend to others to make them happy, she is truly confidence and self esteem characterized. It's not about the deed but the personality. She represented the value of "knowing and loving oneself" and that is something to be respected and looked up to before any action heroics or adventuring.
ALL the princesses are self esteemed characters who know who they are and what the want. ALL OF THEM. The only one who had low self esteem was Mulan but by the end of the film, that changed. ALL the princesses love themselves and know themselves. What indicates that they don't?

Basically it's about teaching kids to be an individual and a full person before anything else. Not telling them to wait for their prince charming to come to the rescue.
All the princesses are full persons and individuals.

They don't have to be badasses. They have to be full characters to model a role around. That's the ultimate problem, the original Princesses really weren't much for personalities. They were just the same generic girl in different situations. The main difference is the later princesses have different personalities, are fully developed characters that go through arcs and changes. The original princesses stay the same character the whole time, never grow, and the only difference in the end is they wind up married to someone they just met.
So Snow White the girl who bosses the dwarves around is exactly like the obedient Aurora? And it's not like Merida's the same generic rebellious princess cliche with no know unique or original characteristics to separate her from Jasmine or Ariel. Oh, she doesn't a have prince, real unique and revolutionary character. It's not like she's a rip-off and they just took the prince out or anything.

You're right about the character development thing though.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 11:37 AM #85
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BobbyDrake2000 wrote: View Post

I think there needs to be a Disney Prince line to balance the Princess line out. I get that certain ones like Charming would be hard to spin as an action hero, but the more action oriented ones like Phillip, the Beast, Aladdin, Hercules (okay, he's *technically* a prince if you spin it right) would make a great action figure line.
The problem is it won't be even; every Princess has a love interest barring Merida and Elsa, so princesses outnumber princes by two. Unless they decide to include Hans in the lineup, which I can't see happening as he's a villain. Hell, he's barely in the merchandise. I have yet to see a Hans doll or plushie etc.

Speaking of Frozen characters, why does Olaf get more merchandise than the male lead, Kristoff?

Also, with the Disney Fairies lineup they created for the Tinkerbell series. We may be limited but we do have a few other fairies in Disney. We have Cinderella's Fairy Godmother, the three fairies from Sleeping Beauty, and the Blue Fairy from Pinocchio. And maybe more that I can't remember at the top of my head. You can't tell me that these characters weren't important. And if you use the excuse that they're "sidekick" characters, technically wouldn't Jasmine count as a side character as she's not the central character in Aladdin? If the Princess franchise spans across multiple movies, why can't the Fairies do the same?
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Old April 6th, 2015, 11:58 AM #86
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Musetta wrote: View Post

Speaking of Frozen characters, why does Olaf get more merchandise than the male lead, Kristoff?
Probably because he's the main source of comedy and probably a little more memorable than Kristoff in the movie and more kids would probably want something Olaf related than something with Kristoff on it.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 05:37 PM #87
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Musetta wrote: View Post


Speaking of Frozen characters, why does Olaf get more merchandise than the male lead, Kristoff?
To be fair, Kristoff is getting the same amount of merchandise the other princes/male leads get, which is basically just a doll and few two inch figures. I think the only Prince to ever get anything more was Phillip, who got his sword and shield released at the Disney store (I picked those up recently on clearance).

The Princes kind of get the shaft when it comes to merchandise. Hell, you have to really search for the Prince dolls in stores.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 05:45 PM #88
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WARNING: Material is not suited for younger audiences

Here is Snow White vs. Elsa in a rap battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcrQvoCzs80

And Cinderella (Sarah Michelle Geller) vs. Belle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeZXQf77hhk
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Old April 6th, 2015, 06:35 PM #89
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JNTA1234 wrote: View Post

I really don't see that especially considering Princes are BARELY in their movies in Snow White and Cinderella's case. Cinderella wasn't even interested in finding a prince. I don't see that at all, the princes are just a common thread in their stories. If ask me the theme is "Keeping a positive attitude in a grim situation". Or maybe, "Girls need dwarves, mice and fairies to rescue them" if any rescuing must me mentioned.
It doesn't matter that the princes are barely in it. Screen time isn't the issue here. The final message is "wait for your prince to save you." and "put up with a bad situation until someone comes to get you out". The point is there's an underlying message of "be the rescued not the rescuer"

How is Aurora accepting her duty a princess a problem? And Ariel didn't abandon her identity. She changed her physical self but she was still the same bubbly, curious, adventurous individual. And she wasn't doing it JUST for a man, when she became human she was paying attention to all the wonders of the human world as well as Eric. I'd say it became 50/50 about her dream and about him.
Aurora's duty is a problem because it's about giving up your freedom and desires because someone else wants you to fit their plans. It's the opposite of being yourself, Aurora's story is about accepting she has to be what everyone else wants her to be and then literally wait for a prince to save her.

Ariel's identity was wrapped in her mermaid life and her bubbly, curious, adventurous nature sort of disappears with her voice. She also did do it just for the man, Ariel only decided to actually runaway to the surface because of the man. She had no desires to do that because of her curiosity of their world, and her final path is to abandon her life, family, and friends, by staying on dry land. Yeah, she liked making up stories about the surface, but she only made the choice to make a deal with the devil because of Eric.

ALL the princesses are self esteemed characters who know who they are and what the want. ALL OF THEM. The only one who had low self esteem was Mulan but by the end of the film, that changed. ALL the princesses love themselves and know themselves. What indicates that they don't?
Not the first few. Their message is about changing their lives for someone else, the idea of anyone changing for them was just not a possibility. They don't display enough personality to just who they are or what they want. You could switch the characters out and get the same results. The only difference was background details of the fairy tale. They're not developed and they have a message of inaction for the audience.

All the princesses are full persons and individuals.
Describe how.

So Snow White the girl who bosses the dwarves around is exactly like the obedient Aurora? And it's not like Merida's the same generic rebellious princess cliche with no know unique or original characteristics to separate her from Jasmine or Ariel. Oh, she doesn't a have prince, real unique and revolutionary character. It's not like she's a rip-off and they just took the prince out or anything.
Yes. Tell me one thing about Snow White that doesn't have to do with the Dwarves. Tell me one thing about Aurora that doesn't have to do with the fairies.

Merida's rebellious nature is countered by her cleverness. Whereas Jasmine may sneak out of the palace, she's not aware of the real world outside her walls and easily tricked or causes trouble and after one incident, the rebellious nature turns to bratty princess until she has the one clever idea of distracting Jafar later. Merida stays on the ball the entire time, even as her mother is made into a bear by her mistake, Merida is surviving an 80's sitcom like scenario set in Scotland because she's clever on her feet and always thinking. The action stuff is secondary to her primary trait of a strong willed personality. That is why she is a better character, because she feels like a real person even in a weird situation.

What do you think she's ripping off?

You're right about the character development thing though.
Which is kind of the main point, you realize right? That they have no development and therefore aren't fully formed personalities as a result. The first few princesses aren't remembered for anything they do as much as what others do for her.
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Old April 6th, 2015, 07:20 PM #90
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

It doesn't matter that the princes are barely in it. Screen time isn't the issue here. The final message is "wait for your prince to save you." and "put up with a bad situation until someone comes to get you out". The point is there's an underlying message of "be the rescued not the rescuer"
Valid Point.

Aurora's duty is a problem because it's about giving up your freedom and desires because someone else wants you to fit their plans. It's the opposite of being yourself, Aurora's story is about accepting she has to be what everyone else wants her to be and then literally wait for a prince to save her.

Ariel's identity was wrapped in her mermaid life and her bubbly, curious, adventurous nature sort of disappears with her voice. She also did do it just for the man, Ariel only decided to actually runaway to the surface because of the man. She had no desires to do that because of her curiosity of their world, and her final path is to abandon her life, family, and friends, by staying on dry land. Yeah, she liked making up stories about the surface, but she only made the choice to make a deal with the devil because of Eric.
If Aurora disobeyed the fairies and dismissed and refused her responsibilities as a princess, she'd get the same type of criticism as Ariel for shirking her responsibilities. And Ariel's personality didn't disappear with her voice. In fact her curiosity and bubbliness shines through more when she can't speak. She's not whining about her dreams anymore, she's having fun and enjoying herself when she's on land. However I see the point, Eric IS the straw that breaks camels back.

So going after your dreams and shirking your responsibilities is bad (Ariel) but adhering to your responsibilities and neglecting your dreams is bad? (Aurora) Also Aurora wasn't waiting on a Prince on purpose.


Not the first few. Their message is about changing their lives for someone else, the idea of anyone changing for them was just not a possibility. They don't display enough personality to just who they are or what they want. You could switch the characters out and get the same results. The only difference was background details of the fairy tale. They're not developed and they have a message of inaction for the audience.
Snow White doesn't really change for anyone, I don't see that. Snow White and Aurora know what they want. A prince, which is why your point is valid to an extent. At the end of the day their desire was a prince. Aurora also wanted the fairies to stop treating her like a child. Cinderella simply wanted a better life, free of abuse. Yeah, the first few do have a lot in common but so do most of them today. ALL 11 princesses have similarities really.


Describe how.
Snow White is cheerful, optimistic, innocent, spunky, bossy. Cinderella is calm, ladylike, faithful, sarcastic. Aurora is a hopeless romantic, a dreamer, the most feminine princess. And Aurora loves playing in the outdoors, remind you of someone? (Merida)


Yes. Tell me one thing about Snow White that doesn't have to do with the Dwarves. Tell me one thing about Aurora that doesn't have to do with the fairies.
Sure. Snow White endlessly optimistic. Aurora extremely dreamy. Like I said the first three ARE dependent I just think it's going a little far to say they're dependent on a Prince.

What do you think she's ripping off?
A headstrong rebellious teen who's at odds with her parent (Ariel), who's also being forced into marriage (Jasmine), she's wild and free (Pocahontas), she can't fit the role society has chosen for her (Mulan), she's unsatisfied with what people expect of her (Belle and Mulan, ALL the princesses from the 90's). The only unique thing about Merida is that she's overly tomboyish.


Which is kind of the main point, you realize right? That they have no development and therefore aren't fully formed personalities as a result. The first few princesses aren't remembered for anything they do as much as what others do for her.
I remember Cinderella an internally calm young lady. I remember as an extremely, admittedly unrealistically, happy individual. I remember Aurora for mostly sleeping but she has an excuse (18 minute of screentime)
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Old April 6th, 2015, 07:38 PM #91
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One of my major issues with some of the princesses, Aurora, Ariel and Cinderella mainly, is that they fall in love with the guy almost right away and there is like no build up to why they have fallen in love with these guys and it makes them come off kind of unlikeable to me. That's why I love certain scenes in Frozen when Anna talks about getting engaged in the same day she met Hans. I like the build up and to see the characters fall for each other throughout the movie, not right away.
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Old April 7th, 2015, 06:34 AM #92
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JNTA1234 wrote: View Post

If Aurora disobeyed the fairies and dismissed and refused her responsibilities as a princess, she'd get the same type of criticism as Ariel for shirking her responsibilities. And Ariel's personality didn't disappear with her voice. In fact her curiosity and bubbliness shines through more when she can't speak. She's not whining about her dreams anymore, she's having fun and enjoying herself when she's on land. However I see the point, Eric IS the straw that breaks camels back.
Ariel's not getting criticism for shirking her responsibilities, she's getting criticism for shirking her identity, changing herself entirely just for a guy she just met. Again, it's a product of its time, so I don't hold it against Sleeping Beauty too much but Aurora's "responsibilities" include abandoning the life she knows, the family she knows, and any choices she had as the girl in the woods, notably that she met someone she was told she could never see or think of again even if he did turn out to be her prince, and to top it off play a part in a curse that puts her to sleep.

So going after your dreams and shirking your responsibilities is bad (Ariel) but adhering to your responsibilities and neglecting your dreams is bad? (Aurora) Also Aurora wasn't waiting on a Prince on purpose.
Changing yourself just for a guy is bad. Changing yourself just for anyone else is a bad message all around, not just for love related stories. Heck, that's kind of the problem for both stories, Ariel's just more upfront and detailed about it and is characterized more.

It doesn't matter if it's "on purpose" the end message is still "wait for someone else to save you."

Yeah, the first few do have a lot in common but so do most of them today. ALL 11 princesses have similarities really.
It's not just a lot in common, it's that they are virtually the same character in different situations.

Snow White is cheerful, optimistic, innocent, spunky, bossy. Cinderella is calm, ladylike, faithful, sarcastic. Aurora is a hopeless romantic, a dreamer, the most feminine princess. And Aurora loves playing in the outdoors, remind you of someone? (Merida)
Snow White isn't exactly bossy and I don't know what you think spunky means. Cheerful, optimistic, innocent, all apply to Cinderella and Aurora too. Snow white and Aurora are calm, ladylike, faithful as well. When is Cinderella sarcastic? Snow and Cinderella are also romantics, dreamers, and as feminine as Aurora.

None of these are really individualizing characteristics of these princesses. It's not until Ariel that they really start forming personalities and are given arcs to develop in.

Like I said the first three ARE dependent I just think it's going a little far to say they're dependent on a Prince.
The climax of their stories is the actions of their prince. Their stories only resolve when the Prince saves them. That's entirely being dependent on the Prince.

A headstrong rebellious teen who's at odds with her parent (Ariel), who's also being forced into marriage (Jasmine), she's wild and free (Pocahontas), she can't fit the role society has chosen for her (Mulan), she's unsatisfied with what people expect of her (Belle and Mulan, ALL the princesses from the 90's). The only unique thing about Merida is that she's overly tomboyish.
I guess generic traits that you can apply to anyone count as ripping off when you don't consider contextual differences. In that case everyone rips off everyone because context doesn't matter, according to you.

Here's what I don't get, you just defended the similarities of the early princesses but any similarity between the newest ones and you call that a rip off.

superfanmj94 wrote: View Post

One of my major issues with some of the princesses, Aurora, Ariel and Cinderella mainly, is that they fall in love with the guy almost right away and there is like no build up to why they have fallen in love with these guys and it makes them come off kind of unlikeable to me. That's why I love certain scenes in Frozen when Anna talks about getting engaged in the same day she met Hans. I like the build up and to see the characters fall for each other throughout the movie, not right away.
It's one of the best things they've done lately, comment on the trope they made movies out of and make fun of it. Most of their newer princess movies break that mold and even mock it at times. Frozen does it best though.
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Old April 7th, 2015, 07:07 AM #93
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Titanium I think you need to go back and the movies because Snow White bosses the dwarves around quite a bit and Cinderella has quite a few sarcastic quips towards her stepsisters. I can't think of ONE personality trait that Merida that the princesses from the 90s don't. I can do that with the other princesseses but clearly you'd disagree. I just can't stand how eveyone thinks Merida is yhis heroic badass when she's technically the biggest damsel in distress! She had to rely on her mother twice, and her brothers to bail her out. Oh yeah, real badass "anti-princess".

And Ariel does NOT change her personality she's still the same person on the inside. And you know what guys pursue girls and stupid things for girls, why can't it be other way around?

And it's obvious that Merida and Brave ripping off other princess movies

And I think it's funny that you praise Merida when she's just interchangeable with Jasmine and Ariel as three classics are with each other.

And Snow White asserts her dominance among the dwarves, I think that's pretty spunky.

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Old April 7th, 2015, 07:20 AM #94
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JNTA1234 wrote: View Post

I just can't stand how eveyone thinks Merida is yhis heroic badass when she's technically the biggest damsel in distress! She had to rely on her mother twice, and her brothers to bail her out. Oh yeah, real badass "anti-princess".
Her bad assery isn't in heroics. That's not why people call her a bad ass, she a lot of her action scenes help, but it's ultimately her character as a whole that puts her there. I understand that you don't see that, I understand that you may not even be able to see that. I don't think I can explain to you how needing help and needing to be rescued are two different things, I think you'll just go negative just because you don't like Merida and I get the impression from this thread and basic history of talking to you that you just don't like or at the very least 'get' strong female characters in general.

What makes Merida unique is her personality, he strong willed nature, her story being about her and her decisions almost entirely, and her interactions with her world. The action stuff she does is a bonus to her already bad ass nature.

And Ariel does NOT change her personality she's still the same person on the inside. And you know what guys pursue girls and stupid things for girls, why can't it be other way around?
Guys shouldn't do that either. That's the point, if you have to change yourself for someone, especially in romantic terms, you shouldn't be with that person. That's the lesson they should teach.

And I think it's funny that you praise Merida when she's just interchangeable with Jasmine and Ariel as three classics are with each other.
She's not at all. I think you totally misunderstand what I'm saying. Personality wise, the first three are interchangeable. Contextually, they are different, obviously, the story is different. But the character is basically a blank slate who has the same personality, who could be put in those different situations and get the same result. The difference maker is in the overall story, not the characters themselves.

Jasmine, Ariel, and Merida even with any similarities are different enough characters that you couldn't possibly interchange them and get the same result. If you put any of those three in the other's story it goes nuts and falls apart. Jasmine wouldn't go to surface because she's given enough freedom to study it and roam her kingdom unencumbered. Same if she was in Brave, she'd have freedom, which is what she really wanted. Ariel would enjoy the world being brought to her in either tale. Merida would ride the tiger and flee the palace or have crazy undersea adventures before even looking at the surface world.

At the heart of it, Jasmine wanted personal freedom. Ariel wanted the unknown. Merida wanted basically to just be who she already was and not grow up.
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Old April 7th, 2015, 08:36 AM #95
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

Her bad assery isn't in heroics. That's not why people call her a bad ass, she a lot of her action scenes help, but it's ultimately her character as a whole that puts her there. I understand that you don't see that, I understand that you may not even be able to see that. I don't think I can explain to you how needing help and needing to be rescued are two different things, I think you'll just go negative just because you don't like Merida and I get the impression from this thread and basic history of talking to you that you just don't like or at the very least 'get' strong female characters in general.

What makes Merida unique is her personality, he strong willed nature, her story being about her and her decisions almost entirely, and her interactions with her world. The action stuff she does is a bonus to her already bad ass nature.


Guys shouldn't do that either. That's the point, if you have to change yourself for someone, especially in romantic terms, you shouldn't be with that person. That's the lesson they should teach.
Every princess since Ariel is strongwilled and makes her own decisions. And Merida's in danger and she needs help. Is that not rescuing? I 'get' strong female characters. Mulan is my favorite after all. I consider killing an entire army badass. And it seems to me that you just don't like or 'get' the older princesses. I think all 11 of the princesses are strong female characters in their own right, all of them. And Merida isn't any better than any of them

Excuse me for disliking a character you like and seeing the positive in characters you don't like.

And at the end of the day every princess knew who she was and what they wanted, even if all they wanted was a prince. And don't see anything particularly badass about riding a horse and shooting arrows is about as badass as Tiana's cooking, it's just a hobby. I think badassery is in the eye of the beholder. And you're bringing up the past and saying I dont get strong female character when I've been defending and seeing strength in female characters this whole time?

And Ariel and Eric is the equivalent of an interracial relationship, it's just that it's hard to go on a romantic stroll when you have fins!

And I can't believe you're trying to define badassery!! It's subjective, I consider Mulan badass for defeating an army and saving China. I consider Belle for standing up to a hideous beast, I consider Ariel badass for holding her own against a shark. Merida needs help running away from a bear. It's a supernatural bear so I'll be a little less harsh. Merida's shooting arrows and riding a horse and climbing a mountain, that's just show. When it's time to get serious she's almost as helpless as the three classics. There was just one moment where Merida shined is where she defended her mother bear from her father. That' it.

Plus, I agree with what Batfan19 said.

My problem here that when you were talking about Merida as badass and role model, and implying she's really badass and a really good role model. She's almost as bad as Ariel in the role model department. She makes a mistake, driven by a man or not. The only difference is Merida is that she gets chance to learn her lesson and says she's sorry. And really that's the only heroic thing she does, she technically saves her mother from eternity as a bear by crying and saying "I Love Mommy". Something any fool could do. Like I said all 11 princesses, including Merida are strong female characters. I don't see anything PARTICULARLY badass or a role model in Merida. She's no better or worse.

Titanium, you just strike me as one of those critical people who think the princesses are "feminist nightmares" or "role models" and Merida's this revolutionary character because "she break the princess mold" and "she don't need no man".

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Old April 7th, 2015, 08:42 AM #96
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JNTA1234 wrote: View Post

Every princess since Ariel is strongwilled and makes her own decisions. And Merida's in danger and she needs help. Is that not rescuing? I 'get' strong female characters. Mulan is my favorite after all. I consider killing an entire army badass. And it seems to me that you just don't like or 'get' the older princesses.
No. Rescuing, at least in the context of these Disney princesses, is not doing anything while the prince does all the legwork to save you. Merida only needed help when she literally ran out of options or in her brothers case, ran into some dumb luck. Merida needed help, but that was also part of her lesson in the story, to stop fighting everything her family said to her and appreciate them.

I don't like the classic princesses. I've made that very clear, they are bad role models and the message they share bothers me greatly.

And Ariel and Eric is the equivalent of an interracial relationship, it's just that it's hard to go on a romantic stroll when you have fins!
I don't see the point to this statement.

And I can't believe you're trying to define badassery.
I'm not. I'm explaining the reason a character is considered bad ass isn't entirely about their action scenes but also the character herself.

She makes a mistake, driven by a man or not.
This is a bigger point you're glossing over. Merida is Prince-less. Her story is all about her in the end, and her family. It's not a love story and it's not a story based around a man in particular the pursuit of a man. That is a major difference from all the Disney Princesses, they're all defined by the prince in the story in someway. The prince is central to their story in some major way. Be is rescuing them or being the protagonist or their overall relationship in general.

I don't see anything PARTICULARLY badass or a role model in Merida. She's no better or worse.
You're trying to bring her down though, explain how she's not "badass" or not as good as your favorites while saying she's no better or worse. Do you see the contradiction there?

Titanium, you just strike me as one of those critical people who think the princesses are "feminist nightmares" or "role models" and Merida's this revolutionary character because "she break the princess mold" and "she don't need no man".
You once got mad at me for being able to explain myself and use big words so I'm trying to keep this civil and contained, but I find anyone using the term "feminist nightmare" like that to be an admission of ignorance to the subject being discussed. It paints the picture to me that you don't understand what I'm saying or why, and possibly don't want to actually know or understand my point at all because it is different from what you think.

Now I have started by saying I don't think the classics make good role models. Merida makes a good role model not because she don't need no man or breaks the mold but because she is a better written and fully formed and developed character all around. It's that simple. Not even for a Disney Princess, just as a character in general.

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Old April 7th, 2015, 09:25 AM #97
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cloudranger wrote: View Post

Moana should be the 14th maybe elena as the 15th, angelina from the upcoming giants as the 16th
Elena wont as she is going to be in a TV show. Unless she has a movie.
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Old April 7th, 2015, 10:27 AM #98
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Titanium321 wrote: View Post

No. Rescuing, at least in the context of these Disney princesses, is not doing anything while the prince does all the legwork to save you. Merida only needed help when she literally ran out of options or in her brothers case, ran into some dumb luck. Merida needed help, but that was also part of her lesson in the story, to stop fighting everything her family said to her and appreciate them.
Right because you can blame someone in a coma for not doing anything? Didn't they run into dumb luck?


I don't see the point to this statement.
I dont get mad at Ariel for changing her body, because it's kinda hard to get around land without feet.


I'm not. I'm explaining the reason a character is considered bad ass isn't entirely about their action scenes but also the character herself
Well I consider all the princesses badass because of the characters themselves. Not if they have a prince or not. Becuase all that stuff you said why Merida is badass, the other princesses do that too, know who they are and what they wanted.

This is a bigger point you're glossing over. Merida is Prince-less. Her story is all about her in the end, and her family. It's not a love story and it's not a story based around a man in particular the pursuit of a man. That is a major difference from all the Disney Princesses, they're all defined by the prince in the story in someway. The prince is central to their story in some major way. Be is rescuing them or being the protagonist or their overall relationship in general.
Oh big deal, there's no Prince I can't praise that (especially when the only competent men are three little boys) when we've had princesses who's romance is incidental and it can be cut out anyway. (Mulan, Tiana, Rapunzel) It's not like Mulan and Tiana don't put their families first. I don't see how a man defines Mulan, or Rapunzel for that matter. And isn't it better not have a prince involved in her story all? That's why I'm glad Elsa was created because her story is not about GETTING or AVOIDING a man.

You're trying to bring her down though, explain how she's not "badass" or not as good as your favorites while saying she's no better or worse. Do you see the contradiction there?
You're playing her up as the best when if I personally HAD to pick and rank the princesses from a heroic perspective, badass perspective, role model perspective or whatever. I'd say Merida is one of the worst, neck and neck with Ariel really.


You once got mad at me for being able to explain myself and use big words so I'm trying to keep this civil and contained, but I find anyone using the term "feminist nightmare" like that to be an admission of ignorance to the subject being discussed. It paints the picture to me that you don't understand what I'm saying or why, and possibly don't want to actually know or understand my point at all because it is different from what you think.

Now I have started by saying I don't think the classics make good role models. Merida makes a good role model not because she don't need no man or breaks the mold but because she is a better written and fully formed and developed character all around. It's that simple. Not even for a Disney Princess, just as a character in general.
I'm not gettin mad. And I've dealt with people with similar opinions about the princesses before and you're saying a lot of stuff along the same lines. I agree she's a developed character. But you're acting like she's head and shoulders above princesses like Ariel. And some ways she's worse.

Let me talk my grievances with Merida for a second. Merida is unsatisfied with her life as a princess and how her mother treats her. She only takes the initiative after her mother does something terrible, throwing her bow into fire she's goes to make deal with a witch. Ariel makes a deal with the sea witch after Triton destroys her collection. NEITHER took the initiative to change their fate, who only after their parents do something horrible. And I think Merida's worse because Elinor only did the terrible after Merida intentionally and purposefully disrespects her in the arrow challenge. Ariel never intentionally spites her father, she just wants to be with humans. I'd also like to point out Jasmine sneaked out of the palace on her own and not because her father angered her.

Merida climbing the mountains, mountain that was established to be famously dangerous, is the equivalent of Ariel swimming in shark infested waters, I think Merida's slightly worse because she just does not it for fun. Ariel just wanted to add more stuff to her collection. Intentionally throwing caution to the wind and endangering yourself does not make a good role model. In either case. Merida potentially poisons, doesn't stop to think that's what she could be doing, her own mother and when she's reacting to it, all Merida asks she'd call of the marriage. Doesn't think to ask if her mother's okay. Yeah, real good role model. She's just as bad as Ariel, the only differences that all Ariel directly did to her father was losing a daughter, and everybody's got to leave the nest sometimes. The worst thing could have directly to her mother was KILL her. Plus Merida tries to change SOMEONE ELSE rather than herself, which I think is worse. But Merida grows learns from her mistake. But she made mistakes in the first place just as bad as any other princess. Not a PARTICULARLY good role model

Merida being tomboyish and wild are just personality traits, being feminine and obedient makes for a good role model too and all the princesses know who they are. We've had plenty of princesses who desire more than a prince. We've had quite a few well developed princesses, regardless of man or not. Again, Mulan, Tiana and Rapunzel. And Elsa has development without having any significant men in her life. You think Merida's a great role model for doing these things that previous have already done (having development, knowing who they are and having in my opinion hobbies) and she doesn't have a prince when the love interest has become incidiental and non vital elements to Disney Movies, since Mulan really. And I think Elsa is better representation of not having a prince. There's nothing romantic or Anti-romantic about Elsa's story.

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Old April 7th, 2015, 11:41 AM #99
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JNTA1234 wrote: View Post

Right because you can blame someone in a coma for not doing anything? Didn't they run into dumb luck?
Do you honestly think it's the same thing, contextually? One of the reasons I overlook Aurora so much is because the entire story is about her in a coma waiting for the prince, true love's kiss, to save her. She does nothing, but it's not her fault, she's turned into a prop by the story itself. At least the Disney version doesn't end with her waking up because a baby explodes out of her.

She's just not that endearing as a character at all, honestly. She's more prop and plot device.

I dont get mad at Ariel for changing her body, because it's kinda hard to get around land without feet.
I still don't understand the point of relating it to interracial relationships or what it was in reference to in the first place.

Well I consider all the princesses badass because of the characters themselves. Not if they have a prince or not. Becuase all that stuff you said why Merida is badass, the other princesses do that too, know who they are and what they wanted.
Except where they don't. You're presenting the argument there are only positives to the Princesses and you don't see the negative side at all, even when pointed out to you. You're not presenting an argument to deny or negate the negatives, only that you don't see them as negatives so they must not exist.

Oh big deal, there's no Prince I can't praise that (especially when the only competent men are three little boys) when we've had princesses who's romance is incidental and it can be cut out anyway.
No. It is a very big deal. The fact you gloss over it is pretty much the core of the problem here. That you don't see why it's a big deal tells me you don't understand the reason anyone could have a complaint in the first place. The first few princesses all are based heavily on romance stories and rely on the prince to conclude the actual story. The actual princess is kind of inconsequential to her story as long as she gets her happy ending with the prince.

It's a big deal that a female role model character's story is not driven by a man in some way. Not by a marriage, a prince, finding their true love, it's about the girl herself. It's the separating factor from all the other princesses, Merida's story is about Merida. Not Merida and her prince charming. It's why Frozen is a big deal as well, because it's a female character driven story. That is why characters like Elsa and Merida are important role model characters.

(Mulan, Tiana, Rapunzel) It's not like Mulan and Tiana don't put their families first. I don't see how a man defines Mulan, or Rapunzel for that matter.
I think at some point you forgot what Princesses we were talking about. It's the original three, and to an extent all the way to Belle. Mulan and going forward we see full characterization, actions that are worth looking up to, the actual groundwork for a role model. But they're also still stories for girls based around a male character in some way.

The concept of a Man is a defining trait of Mulan. She's pretending to be a man, to fit in with men, and ultimately has this relationship with men and her prince that the brunt of the story follows. It's not entirely a romance story, but it is about relationships between men and women.

Tangled, I haven't honestly seen, so I'm not commenting on it. Although I know there is a hero in the story who is more of her sidekick than anything.

You're playing her up as the best when if I personally HAD to pick and rank the princesses from a heroic perspective, badass perspective, role model perspective or whatever. I'd say Merida is one of the worst, neck and neck with Ariel really.
I'm not saying she's the best. I'm explaining why she's a valuable character and role model material. You're contradicting yourself by saying she's no better or worse while trying to paint her as worse and lower than everyone else. Do you see why that is a contradiction?

But you're acting like she's head and shoulders above princesses like Ariel.
Better written yes. Whatever your subjective method of ranking is, I don't care. As a fictional character, she is better made than Ariel, especially if she is being used for a marketing campaign of role model merchandising.
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Old April 7th, 2015, 12:13 PM #100
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Titanium, you did say Merida was a PARTICULARLY good role model, meaning you think she's especially a good role model and to a greatet extent than the others. Then you just said you dont think she's the best, that is a contradiction, and you were implying that shes the best. And in my opnion, when you put me between a rock and a hard place I'd say she's one of the worst. At the end of the day I think they're all good and bad role models. I did explain the positives of the older princesses and I think there is just as much positive as there is negative. And there is nothing wrong with little girls looking to them as role models. All the princesses know who they are and what they want whether it be a prince or freedom. And I did explain why Merida isnt all that of a big deal because all Brave did was take Ariel and Jasmine story and cut the princes out. And I did explain why I think shes just like Ariel.

PS Mulan sucks at being a perfect woman and she sucks at being a man. She can only be herself not a man. I could easily cut the romance out of Mulan's story and romances have been neither here nor there since Mulan. I think its great that Merida doesnt have a prince but I dont think shes this unique revolutionary character people make her out to be.

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