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Old December 9th, 2013, 06:05 AM   #61
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Primo Haim Saban wrote: View Post

I love this, because it speaks to how all-encompassing Batman would become by Bruce Wayne's name even being mentioned, let alone featured as a supporting character.

Just leave him out of this. We have a thousand Batman series, let Gordon have one thing. Please.
Ideally, I wouldn't even feel the need for Gordon, a more general procedural GCPD series would be awesome. Both "Law and Order: Gotham City" or "CSI Gotham" could be fantastic series.

How DO you prosecute the Joker, when the Joker actually isn't legally insane (A legal insanity defence depends upon the accused not being able to comprehend the nature and effect of his actions. The Joker KNOWS full well what he's doing when he kills people, he just doesn't CARE), or have the Lab Tech's trying to reverse engineer a freeze gun etc etc.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 07:38 AM   #62
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knowing Fox's history with shows not named the Simpsons. I don't think this will last long.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 09:04 AM   #63
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I suppose this focuses on Gordon as he makes attempts to clean up the heavy corruption of the GCPD. From an episodic basis he would get chastised by Commissioner Loeb for being too clean, dealing with an untrustworthy partner in Detective Flass and seeing first hand how rotten the force is. Not to mention dealing with Branden and his trigger happy SWAT Team.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 09:23 AM   #64
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Muramasa wrote: View Post

I suppose this focuses on Gordon as he makes attempts to clean up the heavy corruption of the GCPD. From an episodic basis he would get chastised by Commissioner Loeb for being too clean, dealing with an untrustworthy partner in Detective Flass and seeing first hand how rotten the force is. Not to mention dealing with Branden and his trigger happy SWAT Team.
Remember, he's only going to be a detective at this point. Loeb may not even be Commissioner yet, but rather a more high-ranking officer on the force. All of those things you mentioned are generally from much later in the mythos, around the time that Bruce has already returned to Gotham and in his earliest days as a vigilante. If this is around the time of a 10 year-old Bruce, then we're probably still many years away from all of that.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 11:36 AM   #65
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Danny Cannon to direct the pilot

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ustv/new...ny-cannon.html
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Old January 13th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #66
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Young Bruce Wayne around 12 or so.

Villains such as Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler and so forth will be featured as their origins of becoming who they are on top of the corrupted police officers, organised crime, street gangs, and non-freak maniacs such as serial killers.

Already planed well beyond just a pilot with a full series planned (expected 22 to 24 episodes) with a "soap" style for it's story telling.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 08:29 PM   #67
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But... so many villains require the existence of a Batman for their turn into villainy in the first place. Sure they may be lifelong troublesome, but its the bat that ultimately makes them into the villains they are known for.

I'm just not sure I grasp the idea behind this series anymore. It's a large cast Smallville with villains and heroes, that may or may not crossover in their storylines? Is it an anthology or will there be a running storyline connecting everything?
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Old January 13th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #68
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While the story of "Batman caused his villains" became the go-to since the late 80s, it's not actually the standard. Most of Batman's villains have been self-created or were already long on their way to becoming the freaks without him. Joker being the only true outlier depending on which story the character tells that week, and Catwoman only due to one origin story that isn't even the standard in comics any more.

Penguin has already been a upper crust wannabe criminal in most mediums and already called "penguin" as an insult he makes his own name of power.
Two-Face's psychosis happens in most stories without Batman being the reason he takes on the dichotomy. It just takes an explosion or acid thrown at the face to make him snap.
Catwoman in most mediums becomes a thief, then focuses on cats because they remind her of happier times, most of the time and it goes from there. Some universes she started in the animal themed costume before Batman ever came to be.
Ra's Al Ghul (I hope they pronounce his name correctly, unlike recent movies and Arrow) obviously doesn't need Batman to ever be seen as The Demon's Head, starting centuries earlier. This one might not actually be used for the show.
Killer Croc is a man with a genetic disorder, he already looks like a freak and Batman does nothing of the sort.
Hugo Strange is just a psychologist of a crooked bent. His biggest story obviously needs Batman, but for a show like this it isn't needed especially after how well he was accepted (ending aside) in Arkham Asylum game and comics.

Others like Scarecrow? Poison Ivy? Mr. Freeze? Yes to be the costumed villainy that fights a superhero they need Batman to be known as the costumed villains, but each of them are full fledge characters that could work incredibly well without that and viewers will still know exactly who they are. A deranged psychiatric specialist abusing patients with fear serum, a eco-terrorist attacking rich capitalists, and scientist specialising in cryogenics? People aren't going to have trouble figuring out who they are.
I argue Scarecrow in the Nolan movies would have been better without the costume. Pamely Isley as an assasin with poison worked just fine for that first showing in Batman The Animated Series. A friendly and helpful man who truly loved his wife whom Bruce Wayne went to for advice years before Batman, was done quite well in the novel version of Batman & Robin movie.

Harley Quinn? Obviously that needs Batman because that needs The Joker. She'll have to wait for the Suicide Squad show if that ever gets pushed.

As for the story, as stated it will be a "soap" style. As in Soap opera. As in like Smallville. Multiple stories going on at the same time, one focused main story of Gordon, one underlying of Bruce Wayne eventually becoming Batman.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 10:23 PM   #69
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I love the idea of a series tracking a young bruce wayne as he trains to become batman but having him start at 12 years old seems a rather and and horrible choice.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #70
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McAster wrote: View Post

Penguin has already been a upper crust wannabe criminal in most mediums and already called "penguin" as an insult he makes his own name of power.
Two-Face's psychosis happens in most stories without Batman being the reason he takes on the dichotomy. It just takes an explosion or acid thrown at the face to make him snap.
Catwoman in most mediums becomes a thief, then focuses on cats because they remind her of happier times, most of the time and it goes from there. Some universes she started in the animal themed costume before Batman ever came to be.
Ra's Al Ghul (I hope they pronounce his name correctly, unlike recent movies and Arrow) obviously doesn't need Batman to ever be seen as The Demon's Head, starting centuries earlier. This one might not actually be used for the show.
Killer Croc is a man with a genetic disorder, he already looks like a freak and Batman does nothing of the sort.
Hugo Strange is just a psychologist of a crooked bent. His biggest story obviously needs Batman, but for a show like this it isn't needed especially after how well he was accepted (ending aside) in Arkham Asylum game and comics.

Others like Scarecrow? Poison Ivy? Mr. Freeze? Yes to be the costumed villainy that fights a superhero they need Batman to be known as the costumed villains, but each of them are full fledge characters that could work incredibly well without that and viewers will still know exactly who they are. A deranged psychiatric specialist abusing patients with fear serum, a eco-terrorist attacking rich capitalists, and scientist specialising in cryogenics? People aren't going to have trouble figuring out who they are.
I argue Scarecrow in the Nolan movies would have been better without the costume. Pamely Isley as an assasin with poison worked just fine for that first showing in Batman The Animated Series. A friendly and helpful man who truly loved his wife whom Bruce Wayne went to for advice years before Batman, was done quite well in the novel version of Batman & Robin movie.

Harley Quinn? Obviously that needs Batman because that needs The Joker. She'll have to wait for the Suicide Squad show if that ever gets pushed.

As for the story, as stated it will be a "soap" style. As in Soap opera. As in like Smallville. Multiple stories going on at the same time, one focused main story of Gordon, one underlying of Bruce Wayne eventually becoming Batman.
Slight problems with some of your examples.
-Penguin's fine, he's usually an exaggerated basic mobster in most cases.
-Two-Face's origin, while usually not directly tied to Batman, rarely doesn't have him involved in some way.
-Catwoman works without him, so that's fine.
-Ra's (outside of the movies) only comes to Gotham BECAUSE of Batman. Stories of the Batman piques his interest, so he goes to investigate (or usually sends Talia).
-Croc doesn't need Batman true enough.

I'm not saying this won't work, but the writers do have an uphill battle with adapting most of them in order to make them work.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:04 PM   #71
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comicstar100 wrote: View Post

but having him start at 12 years old seems a rather and and horrible choice.
Having him start at 12 years old makes since if what I heard about the pilot is true. Gordon investigating the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne.

I originally had no interest about a show that had Jim Gordon as the focus, but now hearing about Bruce and Batman villains I'm at least interested. I will at least try the pilot.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:32 PM   #72
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Chiron723 wrote: View Post

Slight problems with some of your examples.
-Ra's (outside of the movies) only comes to Gotham BECAUSE of Batman. Stories of the Batman piques his interest, so he goes to investigate (or usually sends Talia).

I'm not saying this won't work, but the writers do have an uphill battle with adapting most of them in order to make them work.
Aye an uphill battle, but that's part of the fun isn't it? Some new and interesting stories can be told because of it that wouldn't in something that so strictly has to adhere to other source material. I was a bigger fan when Smallville was it's own universe, it's own thing, rather than when it forced itself to try and be like "the commonly known comic stories" outside of JSA and Legion.

Also it's not as though changing characters around is a bad thing specifically or can't make something special. The original live action Batman for example radically changed Alfred, Adam West's Batman series help define how most people look at Joker and several others and turned Mr. Zero into Mr. Freeze, and the other adaptations all added or altered things that many ended up liking or accepting when writers had a harder time making something work rather than the "just do what everyone already knows".

It's just a bit fun to imagine what they could do, and hopefully it's enjoyable to see what they do to make it fit this new universe they are going to create. That said, I fully understand and share a bit of worry about it not turning out well.

Now as for Ra's, actually in every medium he's been involved in Gotham before Batman.

Batman The Animated Series even did an entire episode that didn't require Batman at all around the Ghul family.
When they rebooted the comics in the 80s and created one shared Earth, Ra's Al Ghul was involved in Gotham because of heroes like the original Earth Green Lantern.
In Arkham video games, he had an entire plan set up nearly a century before Bruce Wayne was ever born.
In some stories, there is a Lazuras Pit in Gotham that he keeps an eye on. Be it alternate universe comics, several different novels, and one of the video games.
Basically, they've already done Ra's involved in Gotham without needing Batman plenty of times as it's still an important big city with major businesses located inside of it. It's not hard to fit him in at all, if they use him at all due to Arrow.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:41 PM   #73
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McAster wrote: View Post

Snippy.
Well really it comes down to what version are you going to be the most like. For example most recently they've reworked Mr. Freeze to have come about directly because of Bruce Wayne firing him and introducing him to the object of his psychotic obsession in Nora. Or now New 52 Man-Bat exists after the league of Shadows has Man-Bat ninjas to fight Batman.

For the most part though, I can't see the origins smallville style production working for villains that well. I mean yeah, watching Gordon be a good cop in a bad system sounds really simple, especially if you slowly build to him growing tired and beaten by how dirty the system is that he will jump at any chance to fix it including a man dressed as a bat. Watching Penguin be miserable for a few years until he turns to crime? Watching Harvey Dent go to law school? Yeah, it can be interesting and entertaining, but there's just something off about dragging out a villain's backstory. Specifically Bat-villains. Your big names like Penguin, Two-Face, Catwoman, those are backstories worth diving into. Killer Croc? Clayface? Ventriloquist? Not so much.

Even without a connection to the Bat specifically, there's still the matter of Bruce Wayne. Are they really starting this with a 12 year old bruce? Shouldn't that put the majority of his villains in high school or early 20s at the least then? That's what's throwing me off. An older Bruce just back or just on his way out of town sounds better. The news about including villains and heroes just feels so awkward with the initial idea tossed out there. It seems like two different show ideas thrown together, with the second one being pushed in at last second possibly even influenced by Arrow's success with expanding it's villain cast so quickly.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:57 PM   #74
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Well again, remember that Mr. Freeze was one of those "not so much" villains, until he was and we fell in love with him because of it. Same could be said for one of the Clayfaces which finally made people take note of a failed actor where as before no one cared with how many there were in the comics.
Won't work for everyone of course, but again, the opportunity is part of the fun. Right now we just have too little to go on beyond just imagining what they could do. Their ages, their styles, their particular types, what they are similar to, any past medium they are based on, it's all up in the air.

Most people do want "Bruce before he was Batman" and I certainly understand the appeal, but at the same time the exact same complaint Spider-Man has is "another origin story, ugh" would pop up. Likewise "so they are ripping off Arrow?" if they went pre-Bat vigilante learning as he goes set-up.

As for feeling like two shows thrown together, it rather is. It originally was going to be just about Detective Gordon, but too many complaints by fans and those in the company about "no one will watch a Batman show without more tied into Batman" kept popping up. So this is the compromise, keep the young Bruce around and build up as a prequel series for villains and young Bruce before his trek around the world.
However at the same time, they are saying they intend to keep it on track as a prequel tale like that of Caprica, Star Trek Enterprise, Young Hercules, etc (my examples, not theirs) and not get too off track and away from establishing Gotham.

Plus if it turns out well, it could also spin-off a show set later on about Bruce going on his trek around the world, or transform the show into about Bruce coming back with a decent time skip and they already have most of the villains set-up.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #75
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McAster wrote: View Post

Well again, remember that Mr. Freeze was one of those "not so much" villains, until he was and we fell in love with him because of it. Same could be said for one of the Clayfaces which finally made people take note of a failed actor where as before no one cared with how many there were in the comics.
Well then a better example may be the change involving the Cobblepots being taken down by the Waynes and Kanes making the Penguin's backstory more linked to Bruce Wayne/Batman than it originally was.


Personally, I think a better version of this whole thing would be a Year One/Zero type thing. No Batman, but a Bruce Wayne in his final year(s) of training where he's back in Gotham but hasn't had that moment when the Bat breaks through his window yet. In a twist, you make Bruce barely a recurring character. Bruce is basically just a narrator, following the story of Gordon. This would be the time when Batman was studying him, deciding if he was the right man to reveal himself to. Toss in some Dent, maybe even Cobblepot. Bruce could watch several key figures in Gotham and we see villain origins in the mix. An Edward Nigma feeling like his genius is underappreciated by those around him, Killer Croc's change from simple scary looking thug into a full fledged monster, Mr. Zsasz making his first kill, and so forth.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #76
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I honestly don't care whether Batman's involved or not. These shows are just Elseworlds, this case being "What if Jim Gordon had to fight supervillains without Batman's help?". I'll enjoy it.

Of course, I'd enjoy it more if we could develop the lesser-known rogues. But noooo, that's what got Beware the Batman canned. >__<

McAster wrote: View Post

I argue Scarecrow in the Nolan movies would have been better without the costume.
That's because it's true.

Young Hercules, etc (my examples, not theirs)
Good, because that's a terrible show to cite in attracting an audience.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 08:24 AM   #77
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I'm not particularly excited by Batman's rogues gallery, nor am I a huge fan of procedurals, so this concept doesn't interest me much overall, but I don't see the "12-year-old Bruce" thing as a major barrier. At least not if they're prepared to make time jumps a la Battlestar Galactica. There's no rule that says they have to keep the same actor for Bruce across multiple seasons. Hell, they don't have to keep him for more than a couple episodes, if they're really ambitious. And I'd like them to be, because this stuff could get boring fast, if not handled with a certain finesse.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #78
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It better not be like Smallville where it'll take 50 seasons before we even see a small random sketch of the cowl.

Follow young Bruce Wayne as he attends a private school and faces challenges like online bullying and pre-teen gossips about his lost parents... Oi!
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Old January 14th, 2014, 09:05 AM   #79
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I don't really see the problem with it. After all, the first few seasons of Smallville had few if any villains from the comics. The meteor freaks occasionally referenced them or were similar, but it wasn't like Lex immediately became a villain or they whipped out Bizarro and Zod by S2. If anything, a GCPD show is even better suited for this sort of soap setup by not needing the crutch of the Kryptonite mutations and convoluted mythology. Just have a bunch of interesting criminals pop up with the occasional comic villain/character and naturally build an original universe.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 09:16 AM   #80
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If Bruce is going to be one of the leads, I can't imagine that they wouldn't have James Gordon Jr. as one his friends, so Bruce has more of a reason to interact with Gordon Sr. outside of "Well, have you caught my parents killer yet?"
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