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Old December 22nd, 2013, 11:05 AM #361
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Wait, what? Kabuto has production problems too?

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Old December 22nd, 2013, 11:21 AM #362
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ShowstopperHero wrote: View Post

Are there any seasons of Kamen Rider that, as a fan, you guys say would be a must watch? I've only ever seen the Masked Rider show back in the 90s (Which I think was Kamen Rider Black?), but recently got a hold of Kamen Rider Kabuto subbed. Was wondering if there were any other series anyone would really say is worth a watch. Since I heard Kabuto was pretty cool. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Sorry for posting in the wrong one Xeno. I knew there was a Sentai of the past thread. Didnt even cross my mind to realize there was a Kamen Rider of the Past one too. My bad ^_^;
Kuuga man. Kuuga is a must see. The series has one of the tightest narratives in tokusatsu and it's story progression is similar to playing XCOM. Very realistic, organic and based around the events that happened. Even early monster costumes being admittedly kinda pathetic makes sense given later revelations in the story. And it has one of the most endearing main characters in the whole franchise.

And it was Black RX.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 12:11 PM #363
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Then in the latter half of the series, the normal production disasters happened and this was ignored/forgotten about, saying he got his belt from his parents. Which I ignore because the movie idea is much more satisfying.
The movie and tv show also suggested that Hiyori's memory of that day was damaged somehow. The words of her savior that she repeats to herself in both the tv show and movie (final scene in the altered present) are said to be wrong by Tendo in the tv show, when he tells the "truth" to her, and directly shown to be wrong in the movie (the words she repeats are different from the ones Tendo tells her one scene before if you look at the Japanese wording).

The words that movie Tendo says are different from the ones that tv show Tendo claimed were the correct ones, so I guess you can assume that Tendo is remembering things wrong too. It'd also go along with the advertisement for the movie that claims that it's the "true origin".
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 02:51 PM #364
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The thing with that is, Tendou always refers to himself as the sun, so his pointing at a picture of it says he got the belt from himself. Then he says it got it from his fake parents. It's just bad/conflicting writing.

On that note, do we know why exactly everything got shifted around in Kabuto's second half? Hiyori's actress got sick so they had to work around it, but that doesn't cover all of the random retcons and ass-pulling...
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 03:24 PM #365
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I think the only real change, aside from the plotlines involving Hiyori is the Tendo backstory issue.

The natives existence had already been foreshadowed for a while due to Hiyori's meteor stone that was older than the actual meteor. The movie also foreshadowed it with the revelation that ZECT was actually working for the Worm (which had horns in the movie, just like the Natives in the tv show). Everything fits in that side.

There's also Dark Kabuto, it's not an inconsistency, but the script regarding him is quite weird for a couple of months at least. Most of the scenes related to him, before episode 44, seem to be completely tacked on to the script. You could basically cut all Dark Kabuto related scenes from the show up to episode 43, alter absolutely none of the remaining dialogue, and none of the other scenes would suffer or sound weird at all.

It's almost like they had several scripts ready before deciding to add Dark Kabuto, and then just added extra scenes to those scripts. He only seems to start being integrated into the script with episode 44.

Well, there's also the Perfect Zecter too, which was clearly introduced to move badly selling Zecters, but in that case it was mostly ignored by the story. Tendo taking over other Zecters was never used as a plot point by that time, so I don't think it had any effect on the script.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 03:32 PM #366
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There was also the whole red shoes thing and the Hoppers coming out of absolutely nowhere. Apparently there was talk that the Hoppers existed to counter Kabuto and Gatack when they went berserk from the red shoes program, which is why they debuted when they did, but it was never brought up in the show, nor did any of that happen every again. The Hopper Zecters were never given an actual background or set-up, just "So Yaguruma and Kageyama have these new powers".
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 04:39 PM #367
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While admittedly the idea that TheBee Zecter causing its users to go berserk was an interesting plot point, having it result in the Hoppers...and not explaining where the Hopper Zecters came from and why they have them.

Goddamn, Kabuto's last third was a weird mess.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 04:41 PM #368
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Actually, The Bee is another thing I forgot to mention. There was a mark that appeared on users' chests, demonstrated by Ka-GA-mi, and we were never elaborated on it.


Really, Kabuto's greatest problem is probably that it introduces plot devices only to be forgotten or ignored by other writers. It's like American comics.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 06:08 PM #369
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There was also the whole red shoes thing
Red Shoes was mentioned several times even after the one time it was activated though. It's even the main reason Riku Kagami loses leadership of Zecter in the final arc. It's not like the script forgot about it. It just was never activated again - which isn't that odd when you consider that it took more than 30 episodes to activate once, and the characters afterwards knew about it and would avoid getting into that situation again.

and the Hoppers coming out of absolutely nowhere. Apparently there was talk that the Hoppers existed to counter Kabuto and Gatack when they went berserk from the red shoes program, which is why they debuted when they did, but it was never brought up in the show, nor did any of that happen every again.
No, there's some expanded material that says it was another anti-Native measure from Riku, like the Red Shoes system. In the tv show itself, there's a scene where Mishima accuses Riku of being behind the Hoppers and betraying Zect, and Riku just remains in silence, but it doesn't go further than that.

In one of the Net Movies for Super Hero Taisen Z, there's a scene where Rider 1 talks about how Kabuto's main writer (Shoji Yonemura) believed that some mysteries were better without their answer known, so some of the stuff that wasn't directly revealed might have been intentional too, not dropped plot threads, even if it didn't work well in the end, due to the actual changes and inconsistencies in Kabuto's later script, which throws everything into question, I guess.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 06:30 AM #370
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OOO 45-48 (final): Well the world is saved and people can get back to desiring without being attacked by a monster. Maybe now the world can get back to...HEY, WHAT'S WITH THOSE KIDS WITH THAT SWITCH-LIKE DEVICE!? (...and here we go again)

The final episodes of OOO were really a great story essentially blurring all lines between human and Greeed as everything finally comes together/falls apart for all of the characters. Starting with Ankh, he actually remains on Maki and the Greeed's side for most of the end-game due to his own desire, which he has finally figured is to keep something rather similar to human due to his time parasiting off Shingo and feeling what it was to be human, both in emotion...and in ice pops. In a way, by embracing this and thinking he could be the container to gain this, he ends up becoming the enemy of Eiji...but actually to all Greeed, including Eiji and Maki due to having been "human" (well close to it) for most of the season and realizing that most of the "desires" that others tend to hold are really something programmed into them which they may never really seem to understand. The first two-parter really emphasized this with the completions and final ends of Mezool and Gamel, with Mezool driven to the point of driving away Gamel to try and finally understand love in her own monsterous way once completed, while Gamel tragically rampaging thinking that if he gets enough Medals to go with one of Mezool's, she'll come back. Of course this is all part of Maki's plan, completing the Greeed, then having Eiji as the other "dinosaur Greeed" help destroy the Medals of consciousness as he sees less use for them anymore to finally set up his final container, which ultimately turns out to be Uva (the one who wanted nothing to do with the Greeed medal war and just wanted his own completion, which is ironic in that once Uva became complete, Maki was easily able to transform him into the Container)

On the other hand, Eiji ends up trying to figure out what he really wants this entire finale, in order to have a desire strong enough to resist the Purple Medals and possibly drive them away forever. But unfortunately, Eiji's final desire seemed to be rather ironic: he wanted power so he could reach out and help others wherever and however he can...yet in a way, by having the Medals (particularly the Purple ones), he finally had the desire he wanted and thus ended up using his desire both to try and resist as well as accelerate the Greeedification, thereby becoming a "white headed Dinosaur Greeed" in the end that even Ankh sees needs to be saved from himself. Ultimately it is the fact that Eiji's desire that makes him selfishly want to take the burden of the world on his own hands with the lack of anyone who really can be there for him (particularly with Ankh still thinking Maki can give him what he wants for a period) that both awakens desire but is so self-loving in a way that it ends up nearly destroying him and anything in his path. This is exactly what Kougami feared and what he wanted from Eiji: in the final two parter, he says at one point that he doesn't mind giving Eiji the means to be the True OOO, but also wants nothing to do with the Purple Medals, which embody the power of "nothingness" where desires do not exist.

In a way, it is Eiji being forced to realize how connected we all are and that there have to be others to hold their hand out to him just as much as he wants to hold out his hand to others that I think finally snaps him out of his Greeed-like behavior and ends up ultimately saving him and the world. And it's Hina, the "normal human" of the season (well normal as "sweet girl with super-strength" can be) that ends up giving this final lesson with her own desire of not wanting to lose anyone in the end, whether it be Eiji, Ankh or her older brother Shingo. Ankh may want to reach his hand to his dream, Eiji may want to reach his hand out to help others, but Hina merely wants to hold hands together due to the interlinked web that all have. And it is this bond that allows for Eiji to go through with all that he must with Ankh by his side: while I have heard some complain that "Eiji using TaJaDor in the end isn't his strongest form", it is the form by which Eiji has his greatest "connection" to the OOO war due to Ankh, who truly sacrifices his own breaking Medal to allow for Eiji to eliminate the Dinosaur Medals and destroy Maki, the Uva Container and stop "The End". And likewise it is the collection of "hands" reaching out to a helpless Eiji when Ankh leaves (including Hina, Gotou, Chiyoko, even Date and Satonaka) which gives him the final lesson that he needs: he may want to reach his hand out to others, but likewise he has to have others reach their hands out to him in return. It's a mutuality in the web of life and shows that everyone is connected and that nothing comes from nowhere and is alone. (even signified by nice things in the final episodes such as Gotou bringing back Date due to the final crisis and even Maki leaving that ridiculous doll with Chiyoko when he starts his endgame, recalling that two-parter and their connection)

I sort of want to give a final comment on OOO in a bit, but I do think this was an excellent season, definitely better than Ryuki and even better than W to me (Kuuga's still incomplete) Regarding my Rider watches...I want to actually take a half-year break to do a Metal Heroes series I promised before coming back...but I may be able to sneak in a "prologue" to a "truely" weird Rider before the break starts.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 01:41 PM #371
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I find that OOO is better than W in almost every era and would consider it superior...if only Eiji was a more interesting character. It's an element that drags the rest of the show down, IMO. OOO had better fights, villains, music, costumes, story progression, but Eiji (and the movies) hold it back from being truly great.

I want the V3 boxset. Never watched V3 before but I do want to support an official release. That and I love the costume and the boxset would go nice with my original Ultraman DVD's.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 02:57 PM #372
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I actually love Eiji and his progression as a character. He reminds me a bit of Yuusuke but in a more tragic sense: as a laid back man who wants to do the right thing, got messed with in the past, and whose lack of desire and loner attitude made him the perfect vessel to become both a hero...and nearly a monster. His character must learn not just that he can save but sometimes has to be helped and saved by others, which I think is a rather great lesson for a franchise that tends to obsess in solo heroes.

Though I do agree with you on the movies from what I've seen. Nobunaga's Ambition was a waste of time; while "The Shogun and 21 Core Medals" made little sense even if it had a lot of fun elements.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 03:20 PM #373
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His arc is okay and it's ending did keep him from being a personal scrappy. I like how they deconstructed his selfless nature, making him feel more human at the end. But for most of the show, he's just kinda uninteresting compared to the rest of the cast.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 03:52 PM #374
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AkibaGold wrote: View Post

His arc is okay and it's ending did keep him from being a personal scrappy. I like how they deconstructed his selfless nature, making him feel more human at the end. But for most of the show, he's just kinda uninteresting compared to the rest of the cast.
Interestingly, the consensus I hear from others is that Gotou and Satonaka are the least interesting characters. Eiji's got a lot going for him: he starts in a tenuous contract with an evil hand that throw him into the midst of a much larger conflict, he's overcoming a depression from inadvertently causing a war in an impoverished country he was trying to help, he's faced with the possibility of losing himself. He has to contend with not having any long-term visions, as he lives on a day-to-day basis with a philosophy that practically screams "anything goes". He has a story that consistently develops throughout the show as Gotou goes practically nowhere for a bit.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 03:56 PM #375
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Gotou probably is the "most improved" character of the series though. He goes from a whiny brat who keeps going on about "I want to save the world" to a badass thanks to everything that Date puts him through. Weirdly, I think that "Reverse Re:Birth" is the appropriate name for his theme song: he seemed to be the original choice for "Birth", but reversed it leading to Date being brought in, and then once his arc is over he is "reborn" into the main Birth and as someone capable of saving the world instead of just whining about it.

Satonaka is annoying but harmless honestly, considering she had her moments even if she's way more bound by whatever Kougami wanted her to do and rather just stick to her nine-to-five. At least even she learns a bit on what she has to do since she isn't just randomly showing up near the end of a fight and Gotou learns to work with how she works.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 03:59 PM #376
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Gotou's probably the weakest for me, though he does win points for being Akira's wife (their actors' words). Satonaka's under developed but she wins points for being randomly awesome and badass for an underpaid (in her mind) secretary. Eiji has physical attraction working in his favor and he's just a genuinely nice person who's also intelligent and able to outsmart Ankh immediately after their first meeting. And if you don't like Akira, you don't have a soul.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 04:07 PM #377
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^(Shrugs) Gotou and Satonaka were sidekicks to amazing characters, but I see your point. Those things are all interesting but most of those things only became clear during the much better second half. It's not until he has to deal with the purple medals that the story really becomes his. The show was his battle, but not his story until then, at least in my opinion.

First half, I really think it belongs to the villains story-wise. What with their relationships and backstabbing. Dr. Maki's descent into villainy was brilliantly executed.

I definitely agree more should have happened with Gotou and state he should have gotten his belt a lot sooner. They held onto Date for too long (for good and ill).

Hina was the worst character though. No if's, ands or buts.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 11:10 PM #378
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While OOO is in my top ten, if not top five, saying it's better than W is stretching it. While The characters and the Villains are easily the best part of the series, the overall story is a little on the week side. You can tell when the OOO started they had a lot of ideas they wanted to put into the show, the end game felt a little too rushed. Also Satonaka kicks all sorts of ass... as long as she isn't on her lunch break.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 11:52 PM #379
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I'd say Eiji and Ankh got better character progression than Shotarou and Philip, though, accompanied by much more tension between the characters.
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Old December 23rd, 2013, 11:53 PM #380
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