Writing Tip: Outside references

[D-Ranger]

Hi All :)

Since this is a forum for aspiring writers, I thought I'd pass along something that an older and wiser writer once passed along to me oh-so-long ago. I thought it might help a touch with your own writings, since I'm sure some of you might like to actually get published someday, or perhaps just wanna improve your skills. I noticed not much like this gets written here, but what the heck, I'm in a scholarly mood. :cool:

Now, my topic for day is "outside references" within a story, simply put this is when you refer to things beyond the realm of the story itself. For example, giving a character the name of a character from a video game, using a scene from a movie or dialogue from that movie, referring to popular culture items you think are cool, basing stuff off games or TV shows, etc.

This can be broken down into two categories, Major References and Minor References.

A Minor Reference is when you say, refer to people or groups outside the story realm ("Wow, I wish we could call in the Justice League!" "Really? I'm a major Nine Inch Nails Fan too!"), when you sneak in an in-joke about your favorite TV show ("Well, we could take route 67, but it goes through Sunnydale and I heard it got wiped out last year in some disaster."), or name a charcter's pets after the characters from your favorite TV show. Minor stuff, usually one-shot references and put in there for fun, or whatever.

A Major Reference is when you take something wholesale and insert it into your story as an actual part of your story. For example, having your characters get EVA units, or team up with the Sailor Scouts, using a scene from a TV show which everyone knows without changing it, copying the plot of another TV or movie directly or any noteworthy outside thing which plays a part in the story but which is not actually a part of your "story-world" but which comes from someplace else.

Okay, we're clear on this? Hope so. :)

Now, the obvious question you're asking yourself right now is "so what?"

Basically, I'm here to tell you that outside references are BAD BAD BAD things, and explain why. (I should note now that fanfics are a special situation, and I'll deal with them afterwards accordingly.)

When a person reads your story they immerse themselves in your story world for the duration of that story. It's almost like a controlled dream, and a good storyteller is capable of grabbing his audience, pulling them in, putting them through a myriad of experiences and then spitting them back out again, happy and satisfied with that they experienced.

Basically, when a person is immersed in a good story (note we use the word "immersed") they shift slightly in the world of imagination from the world of reality.

Think of this as a swimmer who is going from point A (the start of the story) to Point B (the end of the story), he dives under the water (into the story) and then swims under the water until he reaches Point B and surfaces for air.

This is the goal of a good writer, to keep his reader under his control, to direct their attention, and focus them where you want them to focus. It's what the best writers do with excellence.

Now, however, let's see what happens when you include a Minor Outside Reference in your story...

Using the swimmer analogy again, the swimmer is going from A to B again, but when they hit a floating ball (minor outside reference) and they pause, come up for air, see what they hit, and then dive back again and slowly get back up to speed until they reach B.

See that??? When the reader reaches the reference, they are temporarily snapped back to reality by the reference as their brain connects the reference to other things. They hit the reference, think about it instead of the story, and then go back to the story. But, in that moment when they think about the outside thing, you have lost them, and broken their focus on the story which they must now regain. It's a minor reference, so not too big a deal, they'll laugh or smile, and then go back to reading and settle back in pretty quick.

But, what happens if you make a single Major Reference?

Our strong swimmer dives in, swims along under the water and then suddenly they find a water-polo net (major outside reference) floating in the middle of the pool. They stop, look at it, wonder what it's doing in the pool right now, and why the team didn't take it, and then think about if they should do something about it and what can be done. In the end they decide to just continue, but they just lost their pace and have to work harder to continue on and reach B underwater.

See what happens? The reader loses focus on the story, you've basically kicked them out of the story and made them think about something else. Not only that, it takes more time to get back into the story, and in some cases the reader will miss (or even skip) entire sections of your story because they already know this stuff or are too busy thinking about something else! ("Oh yeah, Star Wars Ep 1 did suck hard...I remember when I argued with Bill about those Midiclorians and...)

And god help you if you stick multiple major or minor outside references close together, because all it will produce is a reader who is thinking as much about other stuff as they are your story.

Not good, not good at all.

Now, obviously you're gonna wonder how fanfics fit into this, since they're literally built on these sorts of references, right?

Wrong.

Fanfics exist in the world you are basing your writings on, since this is a PR group, then it's Power Rangers (and Sentai). When you are writing a (PR) fanfic you are referencing stuff within the setting itself which the reader already accepts. It's not really too jarring to hear a reference to "Zeo Rangers" in a PR Time Force fanfic, because it's still within the scope of PR.

But, when you have Time Force suddenly get Gundams from the future to help them in their next Zord fight...(or obviously use gundams as your model for the new mecha without changing things) then we get into trouble. Suddenly the reader is thinking about Gundams ("and how cool that episode of Zeta Gundam was where....") and no longer immersed in PR, although they will slowly accept it and drift back in again to the story unless you drop EVA Units in shortly after....("oh Evangelion rocked! I wonder how an EVA Unit would do against the Wing Zero and shouldn't they beat a Time Force mech? Or would the Timeshadow kick all their...")

Anytime you take the reader outside of the world you are presenting to them, you risk losing them. It's that simple, and it disrupts their experience with the story, and how much enjoyment they get from that story. Sure, a really good writer can sometimes make all this outside stuff work to their advantage, but most of the time it hurts a hell of a lot more than it helps. And, in the end, you're known as a creative "fanfic author", not a "creative writer". See the difference?

Generally, minor outside references are not a big deal, especially if they're infrequent or maybe appropriate, but too many can quickly become a problem.

Personally, I do my best to avoid them entirely. I used to fill my stories with outside references because I thought they were cool, but now I avoid them like the plague. I want my reader focussed on my story, not one someone else's work.

Best!
D

[TheOneRJS200]

Good advise. I appreciate that you posted this,

[JCool21c]

Excellent Advice D-Ranger. I liked the analogy you used, and it's very true. Being a reader of fanfics, i admit i do like the occasional outside reference, but i'm more interested in what the author has to say about his own work more than what the author says about work that's already been done.

[Fire ranger]

Thanks for the advice. Now I just need to know, how do I get people to read my fanfics. I've been writing since the start of 2003 and I get the same people reading my fanfics and they sometimes reply but mostly never do. How do I get other people to reply like people do for you fics? I personally think I've got some good ideas, but that doesn't seem to be enough for them.

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by Fire ranger
Thanks for the advice. Now I just need to know, how do I get people to read my fanfics. I've been writing since the start of 2003 and I get the same people reading my fanfics and they sometimes reply but mostly never do. How do I get other people to reply like people do for you fics? I personally think I've got some good ideas, but that doesn't seem to be enough for them.

Well, the simple truth is that it's the nature of the net (and people) to ignore medicority. I am not saying any comments about your fics (in truth I haven't read them, but then I don't read a lot of the fics on here, I just don't have the time...*^_^*) but it seems to be that people only give responses if the writer is really good or really bad. :-/ Besides that, forget it.

A better way to judge your fics would be to see how many people actually read it by keeping track of the "views". Although most of my readers don't comment about the fics, I know by watching the "views" metre how many people are actually reading them when I post them. If they keep coming back for later stories, then I know they at least liked the previous ones enough to come back again, and take it as a sign of encouragement. If the number of readers rises, then again I take that as a good sign.

In the end, you shouldn't be writing for their approval after all, but your own enjoyment. I know it's nice to get feedback, but it can't be the only reason you do this.

Don't get discouraged, keep trying and keep writing! The more you write, the better you get. If someome asks me what my best story is, I tend to answer it's the one I'm working on right now. ;) Noplace to go but up!

Good luck!
D

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by JCool21c
Excellent Advice D-Ranger. I liked the analogy you used, and it's very true. Being a reader of fanfics, i admit i do like the occasional outside reference, but i'm more interested in what the author has to say about his own work more than what the author says about work that's already been done.

It's annoying, I originally made graphs to go in those spots but this message board won't let me post pics in this forum, so I had to go with a text analogy. :-P

The graphics make it so much clearer...:-/

D

[Qi]

D- Just out of curiosity, would you consider Brad playing the Thunderstrike Video Game an outside reference?

Fire Ranger- D is right. Keep track of the views. That's where you can determine the total readership.
Qi

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by QiRanger
D- Just out of curiosity, would you consider Brad playing the Thunderstrike Video Game an outside reference?
Qi

Yeah, I knew you'd think of that. ;)

Yes, that is 100% an outside reference. But, it's purposely a small one-shot one, and was meant as a nod of appreciation to RyuRanger for all his hard work. :)

Also, I placed it carefully in the story at a point where the reader wouldn't be distracted too much by it. At the start of a section where the reader would have time to settle in before the "meat" of the story kicked in again.


D

P.S. More D-Ranger, coming soon!

[SilverRider]

Thankz for the advice..it was great.

Begining the author of fic, i certainly enjoy wrtiring them for my own enjoyment. I have one which is popular, but i'm proud of all my fic i have posted on ff.net so far. they are my greatest achivement.

And yes your right the more you write the better you get.

SilverRider

PS: If you ever want to read my fic's lettme know..i'll send the link :)

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by SilverRider
Thankz for the advice..it was great.

Begining the author of fic, i certainly enjoy wrtiring them for my own enjoyment. I have one which is popular, but i'm proud of all my fic i have posted on ff.net so far. they are my greatest achivement.

And yes your right the more you write the better you get.

SilverRider

PS: If you ever want to read my fic's lettme know..i'll send the link :)

Ray Bradbury, the SF author was once asked how to become a good writer...he said you have to do two things:

1) You must write constantly. ("Practice, Practice, Practice" as another Author answered the same question...)

2) You must finish what you write.

I used to only agree with the first one, but these days I have started to agree with the second. I try to finish even the stories I know are sucky, they at least amount to practice and I can borrow things from them for other stories or maybe rework them into good stories later.

D

P.S. Sure! Post your link so people can have a look! I am curious.

[Diamante Brilliante]

Thanks for the great advice, D. I'll definitely keep it in mind when I begin an attempt at my second PR fic. (The first one was a horrible one-shot from Eric's POV ... urgh.)

Ann

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by Diamante Brilliante
Thanks for the great advice, D. I'll definitely keep it in mind when I begin an attempt at my second PR fic. (The first one was a horrible one-shot from Eric's POV ... urgh.)

Ann

Yeah, but the point is you tried. :)
Your second fic can't NOT be better than your first because of it.
Good luck on it!

D

[SilverRider]

here is the link...:)

http://www.fanfiction.net/~silverrider (http://)

Enjoy!!!!!

SilverRider

[SirStack]

Posting on behalf of CLF, since he's still banned.

I could not disagree with you more heartily. You're arguing a degree of insular writing that I seldom see taken by those producing unlicensed derivative materials.

Look, there is a school of thought which says a crossover is somehow an "inferior" brand of writing to a wholly self-contained tome. I'm not minimizing its existence, but to see a fanfiction writer argue this (given PR has crossed over with two shows, and made direct allusions to many others) is more than a little funny.

To expand a bit beyond writing for a moment, if one's suspension if disbelief is so wafer-thin as to be knocked out of a story simply by allusion to something else, then you'd better stop seeing all films made after 1975. Product placement is a tried and true practice in entertainment. Did you know many novelists get a small stipend for including references to products in their work?

But let's move beyond that for a moment. Many novels include quotes from outside sources at the start of the chapter. Is this violation of the fourth wall? The CHARACTERS are not aware these notations exist, we are.

Some of the best Power Rangers fanfiction ever written includes cultural allusions and/or crossovers. Earthsiege, X-Files/MMPR, Personality Conflicts, the list goes on. That these stories are among the fandom's highest achievements is not in question. To argue their impact for being well-written, engrossing stories is somehow DIMINISHED by the presence of material outside the source canon... I'm flabbergasted by that.

"Did you like that Nine Inch Nails single" is just a fucking AWFUL reference anyway. To explore a musician character's own interest in music and tastes in lyrical craft, and have a deep affection for Trent Reznor come out of that... To me, that's excellent writing. It's evocative, and prevents the work from being mired down in needless exposition, interesting to no one but the truest devotees. This is a fundamental tenet of writing. You don't use three paragraphs where two sentences will suffice. A reference often gets the job done BETTER than exposition.

That said, to describe a character as LIKE another... That's just shit, nobody disputes it. It cheapens your new creation, and leaves them eternally in service to the source material. To say a character's life support armor looks like Darth Vader is to miss the point. All mobile life support armor tends to look like Vader's. You want to go in the opposite direction, narratively, if you have any aspirations for the character to stand on their own. It's why no fandom particularly likes fic-original characters, they're almost invariably narrative cheats or half-measures given form.

A reference to something else doesn't weaken the material you write, otherwise everyone would eat "generic puffs," and find a means of transportation other than wheels or foot locomotion (like on Flintstones). Maybe I work in a tire factory. Do YOU know that reading about wheels wouldn't jar me out of the immersive experience of the work?

Otherwise you would have to construct a world so totally divorced from the world around us, and anything that might be contained in it, that you've just written a textbook with characters in it. In the process elaborating so much on this new world of yours that you've just committed the reference/allusion sin in spades.

I didn't find this helpful. Quite the opposite. Nobody likes bad crossovers or references, but if you claim all of them are bad you must not enjoy anything. No slight intended, mind -- but really. You know what knocks me out of films? When laws or statutes are quoted which don't exist in the real world. Fictional presidents are inserted simply to avoid being seen as "partisan." When the real world is referenced WRONGLY.

Conversely, I have a friend who hates to see too much real world sensibility interfere in her viewing enjoyment. Narrative form is irrelevant, what matters is the emotional impact of the story. Logic be damned, just write a good yarn. What do we deduce from this? That's right, suspension of disbelief is not a universal constant. It is quantum mechanics. Past a certain point, it's all just mush.

Debating and discussing this in writing would be helpful. To try and reach and consensus on what writers and readers find acceptable. To decree from on high that these references ALWAYS and INVARIABLY knock a reader out of the experience? No offense, but you strike me as someone that's a little pissed because a reference to Citizen Kane spoiled you about what Rosebud was.

Again, there's no offense intended here, but... This felt like a very rudimentary lecture on the basics of writing and narrative construction, with nary a dissenting voice in sight. No alternate opinions or complexities provided, you're simply the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable in prose writing. Forgive me if I have visions of a failed writer turned college professor preaching to his students.

[D-Ranger]

I don't know what level of debate you are used to, but as a tip for you I'm going to make a few suggestions.

1) When you are trying to rebut someone's position, engaging in emotional invectives and personal attacks on that person will generally get you ignored by people who do this on on a high level. Lines like "no offense" or "no slight intended" translate nicely to "u SuX" and "U r sO RonG" in newbie speak and are taken as such by those of us who really do know the language of debate.
2) Never make assumptions about your opponent, their social position, their job, or their backgrounds. It will weaken your position because you are likely wrong. (Which, by the way, you are on every count in your assumptions about me. ^_^)
3) State your rebut clearly, directly, and logically. This is an exchange of ideas, not a shouting match. (Although given the nature of the internet, I can easily understand you not being used to opponents who actually do this.)

Now, let's take a crack at your arguement...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SirStack
Posting on behalf of CLF, since he's still banned.

I could not disagree with you more heartily. You're arguing a degree of insular writing that I seldom see taken by those producing unlicensed derivative materials.

Look, there is a school of thought which says a crossover is somehow an "inferior" brand of writing to a wholly self-contained tome. I'm not minimizing its existence, but to see a fanfiction writer argue this (given PR has crossed over with two shows, and made direct allusions to many others) is more than a little funny.

Actually, I don't write fanfiction. ^_^ At least not in the direct sense of "using an established property", I chose with my project on this board to write a Japanese-style superhero story using the conventions associated with such a story and mixing them with some other elements of my choosing. I write no crossovers, and use no established characters because I want people immersed in my world, not in someone elses. (Although by the nature of writing a "genre" story I admittedly am playing in a sandbox with other people who have walked this road many times before.)


But let's move beyond that for a moment. Many novels include quotes from outside sources at the start of the chapter. Is this violation of the fourth wall? The CHARACTERS are not aware these notations exist, we are.

Actually, I always hated those. The use of real quotes often is just the writer trying to show how smart they are and trying to tie their story in with some other (and often superior) work. And, when fictional "in setting" quotes are used they are usually badly written and fake as can be. I have seen a few that were amusing, but for the most part I find those to be a mark of inferiority.

And, actually those are not the kind of out "outside references" I was talking about. I was referring to "embedded" outside references, sticking quotes at the start of a chapter is an outside reference of another kind. A literal outside reference, and beyond the scope of this discussion.

Some of the best Power Rangers fanfiction ever written includes cultural allusions and/or crossovers. Earthsiege, X-Files/MMPR, Personality Conflicts, the list goes on. That these stories are among the fandom's highest achievements is not in question. To argue their impact for being well-written, engrossing stories is somehow DIMINISHED by the presence of material outside the source canon... I'm flabbergasted by that.

This does bring up a good point which I failed to cover, and should have when I think about it. :-/

Outside References are not inherently good or bad.

Yes, I said they were bad things, and I still generally believe this.

But, like anything they can be used to good affect, such as you yourself point out when you say...


"Did you like that Nine Inch Nails single" is just a fucking AWFUL reference anyway. To explore a musician character's own interest in music and tastes in lyrical craft, and have a deep affection for Trent Reznor come out of that... To me, that's excellent writing. It's evocative, and prevents the work from being mired down in needless exposition, interesting to no one but the truest devotees.

Yes! I agree 100%. ^_^

However, the reason a good writer is able to use an outside reference in such a way is because they have THOUGHT THROUGH that reference. They have considered it, and used the aspect of it which best suits their story. The same is true for the EarthSeige/PR/Stargate/Rifts/Whatever crossovers that have turned out something worthwhile.

The author used the outside references as starting points, thought them through, and then went beyond that material to turn them into something more.

What I am primarily against, and you yourself agree above, is outside references which are used wholesale. Ones which are plunked into a story because they writer considers them "cool", but to which very little thought has been given.

These are the kinds of outside references I find disruptive and
they are rampant in fanfiction. (Although hardly unknown in other types of fiction either, but real world editors will rarely let them through the gate.)


This is a fundamental tenet of writing. You don't use three paragraphs where two sentences will suffice. A reference often gets the job done BETTER than exposition.

If you will agree to phrase it something like "A controlled and thought through reference sometimes gets the job better done than exposition." Then we agee on this point.


That said, to describe a character as LIKE another... That's just shit, nobody disputes it. It cheapens your new creation, and leaves them eternally in service to the source material. To say a character's life support armor looks like Darth Vader is to miss the point. All mobile life support armor tends to look like Vader's.

Errr???? They do? O_O!

You want to go in the opposite direction, narratively, if you have any aspirations for the character to stand on their own. It's why no fandom particularly likes fic-original characters, they're almost invariably narrative cheats or half-measures given form.

Now you are the one making grand sweeping statements about writing as though you were "god" or "a failed writer turned professor"...^_-

I have read some excellent pieces of fanfiction based around original characters in established settings and using original characters. On this board alone, check out almost anything done by RyuRanger to see this in action.


A reference to something else doesn't weaken the material you write, otherwise everyone would eat "generic puffs," and find a means of transportation other than wheels or foot locomotion (like on Flintstones). Maybe I work in a tire factory. Do YOU know that reading about wheels wouldn't jar me out of the immersive experience of the work?

Otherwise you would have to construct a world so totally divorced from the world around us, and anything that might be contained in it, that you've just written a textbook with characters in it. In the process elaborating so much on this new world of yours that you've just committed the reference/allusion sin in spades.

Not at all. When I read a novel set in modern day, or ancient China, or future Sweden, I expect it to be filled with references to the world it's set in. Those are not outside references, they are a part of the setting itself. As you say, we don't eat "generic puffs" (although I can find them at the local Bulk Food Store if I really wanted to eat them...) we eat "Coco Puffs!" and so should a character who exists in our world. ^_^

However, even then, the fact that a character eats "Coco Puffs" should actually mean something to the character eating them and the story. Even if it's just reflecting the type of person the character is, or the lifestyle they lead, it needs to have a reason to be there and mean something.

When you "name" something, you "invoke" it in the reader's consciousness. Quick question, did the line "I'm CooCoo for Coco Puffs!" flash through your head a when I mentioned them the first time? If so, then my point is proven because I just got you to stop reading that sentence for a moment by including an outside reference! ^_^ If you read published literature you will find that most authors indeed don't refer to "Fords" as often as they refer to "cars" for this very reason. If it's a "Ford', it means something, if it's a "car", the lack of definition means something too.


I didn't find this helpful. Quite the opposite. Nobody likes bad crossovers or references, but if you claim all of them are bad you must not enjoy anything. No slight intended, mind -- but really. You know what knocks me out of films? When laws or statutes are quoted which don't exist in the real world. Fictional presidents are inserted simply to avoid being seen as "partisan." When the real world is referenced WRONGLY.

Yeah, I know, I have the same reaction!

Why? Because at that point, when they talk about "President Edison" or "The 263rd Admendment" the authors have included a...wait for it....outside reference. ^___^

They have included something from *outside* of the "real" world you and I know and gur brain catche{ on it like a hook. We immediately know it doesn't belong there, and accordingly we stop to look at it and try to figure it out. It's the same reaction I have when I read a PR fic and suddenly EVA units start dropping in from the sky to beat up on Zords.

The "reality" of the world we are expecting has been broken, and we have to deal with it before moving on. (Sometimes even ruins the whole show for me! But, I can be anal that way. :-/)


Conversely, I have a friend who hates to see too much real world sensibility interfere in her viewing enjoyment. Narrative form is irrelevant, what matters is the emotional impact of the story. Logic be damned, just write a good yarn. What do we deduce from this? That's right, suspension of disbelief is not a universal constant. It is quantum mechanics. Past a certain point, it's all just mush.

Yes and no.

Yes, it's all relative to the person. (Some of us are more sensitive to stuff like this than others.) But, at the same time there must be a consistancy to any story and the world it occupies in order to present to the reader something worthwhile. Absurdist or scatalogical stuff is fine, but it gets tiring after a while, and there must be throughlines for the reader to follow.


Debating and discussing this in writing would be helpful. To try and reach and consensus on what writers and readers find acceptable. To decree from on high that these references ALWAYS and INVARIABLY knock a reader out of the experience? No offense, but you strike me as someone that's a little pissed because a reference to Citizen Kane spoiled you about what Rosebud was.

Since I do have the high ground, why not use it? ^_^

I didn't walk out of nowhere and begin preaching, I have been here for a while, and even participated in this fandom to a degree. I observed, I collected data, I saw the situation and I published something which I thought was needed on a board which is primarily inhabited by new writers.

And, I have dicussed it, I am doing so now. ^_^ Anyone who wants to is free to debate with me, and I will happily do so as long as they are civil about it. There are no absolutes, and I accept that I may be wrong in some cases, but in regards to the here and now, I stand by my words and beliefs.

I force nobody to accept them, and I force nobody to be silent about them.


Again, there's no offense intended here, but... This felt like a very rudimentary lecture on the basics of writing and narrative construction, with nary a dissenting voice in sight. No alternate opinions or complexities provided, you're simply the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable in prose writing. Forgive me if I have visions of a failed writer turned college professor preaching to his students.

Hopefully Sir. Stack will be kind enough to give you a copy of this message so that my clarifications are noted and you'll get a chance to think some more about this.

I can see that apparently you feel very passionate about this subject, which is why you found it hard to control yourself when faced with what you found an offensive work. However, try to remember that emotion is your enemy when you are debating points like this and will do you little good, all it does is dull your ability to attack your opponent's arguement.

Outside References are powerful stuff, and need to be used with control and caution after they have been carefully thought through. Used properly, I agree they can definitely add to a story, but used improperly (as they most often are) they will have just as big a chance of damaging the story.

Moral of the story. "Use at own risk."

Now, if you'll excuse me. I have a fic to write. ^_^

D

[Clu-less]

I get where SirStack is coming from. When I'm reading a story, I don't get shocked to death by outside references. When I'm reading a story and it says something about The Gap, I'm not going "HOLY SHIT, I NEED TO GO TO THE GAP!"

My fic is set in Brookstone, a fictional town with a bunch of fictional characters. When a character of mines says "Hey, how about you meet me at McDonald's in half an hour", I hope my readers aren't so distracted that they go "Gee, I wonder if I should go to McDonald's."

Your basically saying that outside references shock the reader back into the real world. I talk about my character Clu driving a Chevy Corvette a lot, as opposed to saying he just drives a blue car. Sometimes details are nesscary. If i just lazily say "he drove a blue car down the road", it's a lot more boring than saying "he drove a metallic blue Chevy Corvette" down the road. I don't think that's enough to shock my readers back into reality. Instead, isn't that enhancing the reading experience?

You say if someone mentioned "Cocoa Puffs", they'd start thinking "I'm coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs!" I don't start thinking that. When I'm emmersed in a story, I'm emmersed in it. Chances are that if your reading and you find youself so easily distracted by something like "Cocoa Puffs", the story you're reading isn't that interesting to begin with.

Power Rangers is a strange combo of sci-fi/fantasy and reality. There have been outside references in the show, and I'm not distracted when I read an outside reference in someone's fan fic. If DiamondRangerX says his character is a in a red Roca-Wear shirt with red Nike's, I don't think about Jay-Z and I don't think "Just Do It." It helps enhance th eimage.

My character could be sitting at a table, eating cereal and watching some music station on tv in a white t-shirt and jeans. Or, he could be eating Froot Loops and watching MTV, and he's wearing a white Tommy Hilfiger t-shirt with blue jeans and Timberland boots. I mean, doesn't that help the image? Sure, a flutter about Carson or Britney Spears might cross one's mind, but if you're throughly enjoying the story it shouldn't be a problem.

Unless I'm reading you wrong, you're saying that a tiny outside reference complete destroys the story. The reader is so distracted that he can no longer concentrate on what he's reading, thereby ruining his reading experience. WRONG. Like I said, if you're that destroyed by something so small and minsicule as Cocoa Puffs, the story you're reading isn't that great to begin with.

A good writer can include outside references and keep his readers emmersed in the story. I hope I write well enough that I can include outside references about The Gap and not have people think about the annoying swing commercials they used to make.

[D-Ranger]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clu-less

You say if someone mentioned "Cocoa Puffs", they'd start thinking "I'm coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs!" I don't start thinking that. When I'm emmersed in a story, I'm emmersed in it. Chances are that if your reading and you find youself so easily distracted by something like "Cocoa Puffs", the story you're reading isn't that interesting to begin with.

No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying if you load down a story with lots of outside stuff from outside stories (or realities) then it's distracting and gets in the way of the storytelling. Having your dude eat "Cocoa Puffs" is no problem in Brookstone, having him eat "Cocoa Puffs" in 16th Century Japan with no viable means of getting them, is. Having Clu worship Yuna from FFX and collect posters of her is cute (if it's not overdone), having him date her in a setting crossover a regular basis is distracting. (Unless of course you clearly established gateways between the two worlds from the start, then it's an established part of the setting and is a part of that reality.)

Writing is about control, the same way drawing, painting, or playing an instrument is about control. A good writer has control over all aspects of their work, and through that work they control their audience. New writers often lack that control (natural talent plays a factor, of course) and as such they should be encouraged to keep their writing as simple as possible.

Writing fanfics is actually not a bad training ground for new writers, as it gives them a way to experiment with the ideas of others before they venture out on their own. They just have to worry about the story, not the setting or the background or the characters. Everything is there for them and established, kind've like training wheels on a bike.

But, these "training wheels" can't stay on forever if the writer wants to progress to becoming a writer of original works. I see "outside references" (maybe I should call them "inappropriate cultural references" instead to avoid confusion, since a story is normally filled with references to the outside world of the reality it exists within) as another aspect of those "training wheels". They are a "crutch" upon which the writer relies to replace their own ideas.


D

[SilverRider]

Now that's been said and done :o

Can SOMEONE read my fics and let me know how they are!!!!!!!! :D

Oh sure i get review for 'em..but since after reading this.......:rolleyes:

[D-Ranger]

One of my friends found CLF's post....amusing....So I thought I'd post his response....not for the timid at heart...^_^

---------

> Writing Tip: Outside references
> Hi All
>

The first part of this I feel is entirely valid, so we won't discuss it.



> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> And I waited for a response...which turned out to be two weeks of people
> literally saying it was wonderful advice...No debate, just lots of nods.
I
> wasn't sure what to expect really, I was just tossing a voice into the
> storm.
>

Well; watch how many of them actually ADOPT your advice. Stuff like a
web group is typically a mutual back-patting association, so ANYTHING
remotely articulate is OF COURSE wonderful. ("But since I didn't come up
with it, it's not really valid...")



>
> Posting on behalf of CLF, since he's still banned.
>

... probably 'cos he's a retard...

> I could not disagree with you more heartily.

...called that one, didn't I....

You're arguing a degree of
> insular writing that I seldom see taken by those producing unlicensed
> derivative materials.
>

Warning # 1: Einstein here is trying to pack a whole shitload of $40
words into one line... RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING! It's a scare tactic akin to
softening the enemy up with an artillery barrage before the charge. "Look,
I'm smarter than you. ALL FEAR MY MIGHTY LOBES!!!"

> Look, there is a school of thought which says a crossover is somehow an
> "inferior" brand of writing to a wholly self-contained tome. I'm not
> minimizing its existence, but to see a fanfiction writer argue this
(given
> PR has crossed over with two shows, and made direct allusions to many
> others) is more than a little funny.

... but Rob wasn't talking about a CROSSOVER; he was talking about a
big, steamy literary turd plopped into the story...

>
> To expand a bit beyond writing for a moment, if one's suspension if
> disbelief is so wafer-thin as to be knocked out of a story simply by
> allusion to something else, then you'd better stop seeing all films made
> after 1975. Product placement is a tried and true practice in
entertainment.
> Did you know many novelists get a small stipend for including references
to
> products in their work?
>

Do YOU know that tv shows in the 50's would actually have a PAUSE,
wherein the characters would shill some weird product? That's where
commercials came from. (It's also a big part of why they're called "soap
operas." Cos they were used to shill housewares, such as detergent, to an
audience of housewives.

Moral: If you WANT to use facts in your retort, DO SOME FUCKING
HOMEWORK!!!!

Also; many movies and tv shows are SUPPOSED to be set in the "real
world" of the audience, and actual product refrences help reinforce this.

> But let's move beyond that for a moment. Many novels include quotes from
> outside sources at the start of the chapter. Is this violation of the
fourth
> wall? The CHARACTERS are not aware these notations exist, we are.
>

Yeah; and often they're used by the author to show how hip and cool they
are; since they're usually not really appropriate; but they are timely.

> Some of the best Power Rangers fanfiction ever written includes cultural
> allusions and/or crossovers. Earthsiege, X-Files/MMPR, Personality
> Conflicts, the list goes on.

Yeah; but they're CROSSOVERS, asshole! They INHERENTLY acknowledge the
existence of two seperate continuities. Mulder doesn't just show up and
shoot a baddie. They draw from the two continuities.

AND they show that the author probably doesn't have much of an
imagination. C'mon... how hard can it be to think of something similar to,
but original from, the X-fucking-Files? The whole damned show was basically
a point form outline for conspiracy nerd tv.


That these stories are among the fandom's
> highest achievements is not in question. To argue their impact for being
> well-written, engrossing stories is somehow DIMINISHED by the presence of

> material outside the source canon... I'm flabbergasted by that.
>

And I can tell by how much stock you've put into Power Ranger fanfic an
indication that you will probably never breed! Dude; it's a ripoff wish
fulfilment piece. Get a sense of perspective.


> "Did you like that Nine Inch Nails single" is just a fucking AWFUL
reference
> anyway. To explore a musician character's own interest in music and
tastes
> in lyrical craft, and have a deep affection for Trent Reznor come out of
> that... To me, that's excellent writing.

Er... you got all that from "did you like that Nine Inch Nails
single...."????? I'm thinking an actual conversation with this
mouth-breather would probably be excrutiating!

Of course; from his use of hyperbole, I bet he's a fan. AND he's done an
excellent job OF ILLUSTRATING YOUR FUCKING POINT!!!! This guy seems to be
busy meditating on the joy of licking Trent Reznor's balls IN THE MIDDLE OF
HIS ARGUMENT!!! Dude; you're in the middle of a fight here, and it's just
an example. Try dealing with the point being illustrated AND NOT THE
FUCKING EXAMPLE ITSELF!

It's evocative, and prevents the
> work from being mired down in needless exposition, interesting to no one
but
> the truest devotees.

ALL HAIL TRENT'S BALLS!!!! LONG MAY THEY SWING!!!!

This is a fundamental tenet of writing.

Alienating the part of your audinece that doesn't share your musical
tastes? Nope; don't remember that one.


You don't use
> three paragraphs where two sentences will suffice. A reference often gets

> the job done BETTER than exposition.
>

Especially if there's some CONTEXT to it. See my previous two points...
QUICKLY!

> That said, to describe a character as LIKE another... That's just shit,
> nobody disputes it. It cheapens your new creation, and leaves them
eternally
> in service to the source material.

...like a Vampire thrall to his super-hip lord and creator... oh my
tortured soul... that I pour out my lifeblood through my pen, that the
Power Rangers may live on in a new, glorious form... illuminated by my
genius...

To say a character's life support armor
> looks like Darth Vader is to miss the point. All mobile life support
armor
> tends to look like Vader's. You want to go in the opposite direction,
> narratively, if you have any aspirations for the character to stand on
their
> own. It's why no fandom particularly likes fic-original characters,
they're
> almost invariably narrative cheats or half-measures given form.
>

Okay, now you're losing me. So it's shit to refer to something else, yet
this is the basic tenet of the brilliant, liberating media that will one
day save the world known as "fan fiction." (Insert the trumpets of Angels
here...) So... to write fanfic is to wallow in shit?


> A reference to something else doesn't weaken the material you write,

... except that apparently to do so is "shit"....

> otherwise everyone would eat "generic puffs," and find a means of
> transportation other than wheels or foot locomotion (like on
Flintstones).
> Maybe I work in a tire factory. Do YOU know that reading about wheels
> wouldn't jar me out of the immersive experience of the work?
>

"Reading about wheels...?" How often would you have to WRITE about
wheels in a story; UNLESS you were describing the special road-slick,
titanium reinforced, bonded mesh wheels of the heroe's car. Writing about
these wheels would actually be CREATING them. Yeah; we all know what a
wheel is, but to write about a special type of wheel is to create.

Unless you just say "with grip pads like on the Mach 5."

> Otherwise you would have to construct a world so totally divorced from
the
> world around us, and anything that might be contained in it, that you've
> just written a textbook with characters in it.

It's called a ROLE PLAYING GAME. People with friends love them...

In the process elaborating so
> much on this new world of yours that you've just committed the
> reference/allusion sin in spades.
>

Buddy here seems so intent on proving you wrong that he forgets that
whenever you write ANYTHING you're assuming a certain baseline
understanding in your audience. Note that this concept isn't addressed ONCE
in his retort. Because he probably doesn't really give a shit about the
audience. He writes to illuminate his own brilliance, not for any audience.
(Except perhaps the always appreciative web based one.)

> I didn't find this helpful. Quite the opposite. Nobody likes bad
crossovers
> or references, but if you claim all of them are bad you must not enjoy
> anything. No slight intended, mind -- but really.

Now; his hidden implication here is that there's NOTHING new. Not a
surprising one for one who considers himself a fan of something; but NOT
the attitude of a normal person.


You know what knocks me
> out of films? When laws or statutes are quoted which don't exist in the
real
> world. Fictional presidents are inserted simply to avoid being seen as
> "partisan." When the real world is referenced WRONGLY.
>

Which means that he's drawing from a pre-established body of knowledge.
He's building on a preconception of the world. But he hasn't actually
considered HOW this preconception applies to creating something. That's
obvious from the fact that he doesn't get into WHY this bugs him.

Now; if he hates the real world refrenced wrongly; HOW THE FUCK CAN HE
WATCH SENTAI? OR THE X-FILES? OR DAMNED NEAR ANYTHING?!?!?!?


> Conversely, I have a friend who hates to see too much real world
sensibility
> interfere in her viewing enjoyment. Narrative form is irrelevant, what
> matters is the emotional impact of the story. Logic be damned, just write
a
> good yarn.

Exactly, but what we're getting at here is what constitutes a good yarn.
How do you maximalize the emotional impact on your given audience; and why
does it work on them.

What do we deduce from this? That's right, suspension of
> disbelief is not a universal constant. It is quantum mechanics. Past a
> certain point, it's all just mush.
>

...except that Quantum Mechanics describes what we presently belive to
be universal constants.... Again; he thrown in a refrence made to
demonstrate intelligence without actually having a clue.


> Debating and discussing this in writing would be helpful. To try and
reach
> and consensus on what writers and readers find acceptable.

AND would be a great way for buddy here to demonstrate more of his
massive intellect...

To decree from on
> high that these references ALWAYS and INVARIABLY knock a reader out of
the
> experience? No offense, but you strike me as someone that's a little
pissed
> because a reference to Citizen Kane spoiled you about what Rosebud was.
>

Why? Rob actually presented logical, cause-and-effect progression
arguments. Buddy here just said "no, you're wrong" without illustrating
anything.

> Again, there's no offense intended here, but...

... except for that which he intended...

This felt like a very
> rudimentary lecture on the basics of writing and narrative construction,
> with nary a dissenting voice in sight. No alternate opinions or
complexities
> provided, you're simply the arbiter of what is and is not acceptable in
> prose writing.

Actually; that's what THIS argument seems like. Again, with Rob's point
there was a progression of thought that could be debated.

Forgive me if I have visions of a failed writer turned
> college professor preaching to his students.
>

Then stop looking in the mirror freak.

> --------------------------------------------
>
> Wow! Condescending and insulting much? :P I guess I shouldn't have pissed
in
> his oatmeal. :)

Feel free. Folks like this are a waste of space.

> He is valid in saying I didn't discuss it so much as declared it as the
word
> of God. Although I rather find that on the internet, that's actually not
a
> bad tac to take in newsgroups because it's the one which best provokes a
> response.
>

Except that's not what you did. Yeah; it can be really intimidating to
be confronted with an actual ARGUMENT (especially after months of "we're
all so cool" type writing) but if you feel the need to refute, attack the
actual arguments.

> That said, it does lead to the question of how many outside references
are
> too much? And, on top of that, a question which has always bothered
me...Why
> do things like referring to "the president" sometimes bug me like it does

> him, and other times work quite nicely? :-/ And, there is those fanfics
> based on nothing but outside references which are quite amazing.
> (Startrek/Gundam/FFS/Macross/Stawnberry Shotcake/Sailor Moon crossovers
that
> somehow still manage to work.)
>

It's always a means to an end. You've got to have something to say, and
then you work to articulate it. Crossovers have an advantage of being able
to draw from a lot of preconceptions and already established emotion. Stuff
like Harvey Birdman is funny 'cos they're fulfilling a personal sense of
achievement by pointing out things in old cartoons that an adult mind would
infer.

A lot of the Japanese stuff meshes pretty well too; 'cos it's all based
on the same formula. Sort of like Superhero crossovers. (I really wish you
guys had read "Normalman." ) Kids stuff can be mucked with as well because
of the gaps in the continuity. Most kids shows present really basic,
surface characters and such. It's easy to plug stuff in. (Like the whole
"Casper the Friendly Dead Kid" thing.)

It'd be interesting to hear you guys's takes on this. As for this clown
here; it'd proably be best to not dick around with him too much. It'll just
piss you off.

Don C.

[Sym Bitch Rain Bot]

I smell pretention. Go wash yourself.

And how did your friend write a comment to CLF if he did not post. Jesse made a comment as a favor to Chris on a topic they share similar views to. However my dear sir, it makes you come off as a complete asshat when you initiate an assult on someone who did not partake in refuting your beliefs.

And while you are in such a position to definitively refute such claims... what precisely are your credentials? Or are you simply a case of a Chewley's gum prepresentative making a case only to garner shameless self promotion?

But to the extent you take this is amusing as you seem to have no gray area of where varying beliefs are accepted as possibilities. Unless you have a few published bestsellers under your name you have no right to simply sayh someone with a differing belief is entirely wrong.

You mention you do not write fanfiction perse. While many of the standards to good writing do carry over.... fanfiction is a very different beast and thus some of your rules, as mentioned, do not exactly apply. Which is precisely why your set of rules can and should be debated and refuted as there are differences.

But goodness..... you act in a manner that you think you are god's gift to the fanfic community. Yet you seem to not take into account writing is indeed an art where the rules can be played with hard and fast to create something euqally beautiful to one playing by your classical rules.

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by Rain Flower
I smell pretention. Go wash yourself.

And how did your friend write a comment to CLF if he did not post. Jesse made a comment as a favor to Chris on a topic they share similar views to. However my dear sir, it makes you come off as a complete asshat when you initiate an assult on someone who did not partake in refuting your beliefs.

How did Chris (who managed to get banned) make a comment on a board he was banned on? About an article he probably couldn't even read?
I let my friends read the article I wrote, and Chris's reply. (Since it was the closest thing to criticism I got, and thought it might be worth dicussion.) I posted the reply with the best points for the rest of you to read. (Try re-reading it without the swearing and you will notice he actually has many good points.)
I never indicated once this was directed at Jesse, I have no problems with Jesse at all.


And while you are in such a position to definitively refute such claims... what precisely are your credentials? Or are you simply a case of a Chewley's gum prepresentative making a case only to garner shameless self promotion?

This is the internet, credentials (also known as the "my dick is bigger than yours game") are a meaningless distraction. Ideas and substance are the rule here, either you refute my claims logically and substancially or move aside. (you could also flame me, but that would be equally pointless...I am not 12 and will just ignore it...)


But to the extent you take this is amusing as you seem to have no gray area of where varying beliefs are accepted as possibilities. Unless you have a few published bestsellers under your name you have no right to simply sayh someone with a differing belief is entirely wrong.

Why should you bow to me if I can prove here and now I wrote bestsellers?


You mention you do not write fanfiction perse. While many of the standards to good writing do carry over.... fanfiction is a very different beast and thus some of your rules, as mentioned, do not exactly apply. Which is precisely why your set of rules can and should be debated and refuted as there are differences.

Different rules, eh? Prove it.


But goodness..... you act in a manner that you think you are god's gift to the fanfic community. Yet you seem to not take into account writing is indeed an art where the rules can be played with hard and fast to create something euqally beautiful to one playing by your classical rules.

Like anything, writing is primarily an art, but there is also a science to it. What works and what doesn't work, and those things should be debated, researched and discussed. I have done those three things, and given an analysis. If you wish to refute it, then by all means, do so.

But, giving emotional responses will get you nowhere.

D

[Sym Bitch Rain Bot]

Let's see emotional? Because I ask you to keep the name of someone out of your belittiling as they had not at all partook in this discussion? The only emotional aspect of the reply.

And again.... you speak of the science of writing, yet science involves constant experimentation and adaptation to what is found to be effective and changing as certain things are disproven. Some of the most influencial works of human literature defied what the ever changing standards of writing of their time.

This is the flaw in your argument. You describe writing as a textbook does... monotonous and lacking style. You set your own standards as rules and quickly smite any opposition. Writing is not taught through black and white. Everything you state is fact in your book despite there being alternate options. I think Jesse very easily described how outside references can be beneficial to developing the world around them, something you entirely dismissed in your first post. Many of your rules can be broken in certain situations. Even rules of grammar are easily played with in regards to developing a character through dialoge or through establishing a voice through a first person narrative.

In addition, you fail to address many of the nuicances of fanfiction. You mention the outside reference, and more or less dismiss the crossover, which is its own subgenre of the art and can be done with good or ill effect. The major problem with bad fanfiction usually does not come through outside references but through dreadful characterization. That is a string that restrains fanfiction writers to an extent. Yet some how Cocoa Puffs is the enemy of fanfiction? Quite laughable indeed.

What amazes me is you still do not seem to show any proof of your own writing. I have seen absolutely nothing to show to me that you are a good writer. You can follow all your rules and still come up with a dull, absolutely retched story. These are the writers who fail yet end up teaching such a 'science' on the college level. Your style is that of one who would write educational nonfiction texbooks.

Honestly I do have to question if you are even a fan of the show this board is meant to discuss. Or do you merely intent to spout your truth all across the internet. It leaves me wondering.

Oh and in regards to the dick comment.... sorry I am indeed female. Don't have one to flaunt. I was merely using one of those pesky outside references to describe the level of pompousness you exhibit.

In addition to that you are the one who acts all big and mighty from the first paragraph in your first post on this thread. You think you are above the writers here, whcih is a poor way fo thinking.

What it comes down to..... unless you can give me a reason to have such faith in your devine abilities, I am simply going to regard you as a self reightous poser.

And goodness you are even wordier than Cyrax 9

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by Rain Flower
Let's see emotional? Because I ask you to keep the name of someone out of your belittiling as they had not at all partook in this discussion? The only emotional aspect of the reply.

Umm, Rainflower. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not CLF (who I assume is Chris) not Sir Stack (Jesse, right) that I am in theory arguing with? (before you came into the picture)

I am arguing with the person who wrote the original attempt at a rebuttal. I don't really care which one it was, but according the header it was posted by Sir Stack on behalf of CLF. Not "written by CLF on behalf of Sir Stack". I have assumed Sir Stack is a person on the sidelines and besides possibly agreeing with CLF and has little to do with this mess. If I have this reversed, I would be happy if Sir Stack were to clarify this since there has never been anything said in this thread to indicate otherwise.


And again.... you speak of the science of writing, yet science involves constant experimentation and adaptation to what is found to be effective and changing as certain things are disproven. Some of the most influencial works of human literature defied what the ever changing standards of writing of their time.

Science is a theory of the world based on falsification achieved through the scientific method.

Through observation and experimentation based on my own experience with narratives I have found as a guideline that cluttering your work with unecessary outside references inserted without clear direction and thought will prove to be more detrimental than beneficial. That is my point, and I consider it a guideline. It was CLF there (presumeably) who suddenly seemed to think I was pronouncing the word of god. (You will notice this whole thread is labeled "Writing Tip"..."Tip"....as in, "here's a thought some of you might find useful." Not as in, "if you don't do this you will burn in the special part of hell reserved for writers who don't follow my rules.").


This is the flaw in your argument. You describe writing as a textbook does... monotonous and lacking style. You set your own standards as rules and quickly smite any opposition. Writing is not taught through black and white. Everything you state is fact in your book despite there being alternate options. I think Jesse very easily described how outside references can be beneficial to developing the world around them, something you entirely dismissed in your first post. Many of your rules can be broken in certain situations. Even rules of grammar are easily played with in regards to developing a character through dialoge or through establishing a voice through a first person narrative.


Did you only read my friend's counter-rant, or did you actually read my own response. (It would be helpful if you specificed who you are talking to, not that he will will care, but it does keep me from replying to things I didn't say myself.)

In my own response, I agreed with the author of the original rant (whoever it may be) that indeed outside references can be useful if they are used properly. However, I think the majority of fanfiction authors fail to use them properly (mostly because of inexperience as writers) and as such should avoid using them whenever possible until they have more control over their craft.


In addition, you fail to address many of the nuicances of fanfiction.

Which are? Please enlighten me. I am trying to TALK to you here. Not yell. Not scream. Talk and find out what your point of view is. But, I will need specific references if you are going to make such statements. Even a few simple examples will do.


You mention the outside reference, and more or less dismiss the crossover, which is its own subgenre of the art and can be done with good or ill effect. The major problem with bad fanfiction usually does not come through outside references but through dreadful characterization. That is a string that restrains fanfiction writers to an extent. Yet some how Cocoa Puffs is the enemy of fanfiction? Quite laughable indeed.

It's funny...you people are so hung up on the whole "Cocoa Puffs"
line that you keep repeating it over and over in your rebuttals. Never realizing that the very fact it stuck in your heads proves that my point is correct. ^__^ When you hit the line about "cocoa puffs" (which was a stupid little throwaway example/joke I stuck in for fun) your brains seem to have fixated on it and missed much of the rest of what I said. (Just like I said outside references will do in stories if not used correctly. Maybe I should have followed my own advice...:P)


What amazes me is you still do not seem to show any proof of your own writing. I have seen absolutely nothing to show to me that you are a good writer. You can follow all your rules and still come up with a dull, absolutely retched story. These are the writers who fail yet end up teaching such a 'science' on the college level. Your style is that of one who would write educational nonfiction texbooks.

Err...Rainflower...I've been putting stuff up on here for months....real complete stories....I'm not Ryuranger or anything, but I am not a poser either.

http://www.geocities.com/rpatersonca/DRanger.html

There's my story archive. Read away, feel free to critique them.

If you feel they are "dull textbooks" then that's your opinion and you're welcome to it, but last time I checked I was one of the more read fanfic writers on here in terms of views for single posting stories.

That said, remember that often a coach knows just as much, or even more about baseball than a player often does. Whether I can write or not (and the quality of said writing) is irrelevant to the discussion, which is simply whether outside references are detrimental to a story.



Honestly I do have to question if you are even a fan of the show this board is meant to discuss. Or do you merely intent to spout your truth all across the internet. It leaves me wondering.

Actually, I have the whole seasons of Time Force and Wild Force on tape, and always kinda liked Lost Galaxy. As for the rest of the series, they have their ups and downs.

I cheered when I watched Forever Red like everyone else here. ^_^ Nuff said.



Oh and in regards to the dick comment.... sorry I am indeed female. Don't have one to flaunt. I was merely using one of those pesky outside references to describe the level of pompousness you exhibit.

Actually, it's not an outside reference of the kind I am talking about for 2 reasons:
1) It's a part of the world you and I both live in, and a natural part of our environment. Therefore it is not intrusive to the arguement.
2) You CHOSE to put it there and specifically used it with thought about what you said, and it's not in appropriate either. (You are implying that I am some low class individual, which is wrong, but you are still using it with thought and specific placement.)


In addition to that you are the one who acts all big and mighty from the first paragraph in your first post on this thread. You think you are above the writers here, whcih is a poor way fo thinking.

Actually as a writer in this genre, Ryuranger majorly kicks my ass and I am in awe of his skill. (if you don't read his work, which I doubt, I highly recommend it) While I will say with confidence I am a better writer than many of the people here, I am very much a new and developing writer. Writing is an art which takes a lot of time to develop, and that time is not as freely available to me as I would like it to be. :-/

Writing Theory, however, I know quite a bit about. I should after two degees in English Lit. :-P However, having spent time writing I also know that knowing how to do something and being able to do it are two slightly different things. Only with time and experience can you learn to combine theory and practice into one.


What it comes down to..... unless you can give me a reason to have such faith in your devine abilities, I am simply going to regard you as a self reightous poser.

And goodness you are even wordier than Cyrax 9

If I could do this in 2 sentences, I would. Trust me!

D

[Claveler]

Nice way to fuck a good thread, people... :rolleyes:

[Sym Bitch Rain Bot]

Originally posted by D-Ranger
Let me see...I am the one offering substancial arguements....you are the one sitting there making claims without attempting to back them up and now complaining because your fingers hurt from trying to keep up with me....

D

Um.... wait so "Why should you bow to me if I can prove here and now I wrote bestsellers?" is a more substantial argument as opposed to asking how you suddenly obtained the position to inform evreyone else how to write?

Oh and Cocoa Puffs stands out as that was quite possibly the most interesting part of your argument. The rest was about to put me to sleep. And your friend was so autrocious I skipped over much of what was said in that reply.

And I made the case of a nuicance of fanficiton you entirely ignore is characterization. I mention that...... you choose to ignore any point that you do not wish to address. Your problem not mine... enoguh of the I am not making valid points as you simply are overlooking or ignoring them.

Oh and reading your stuff.... it does confirm my suspicion on how you write. It is technically sound yet it is dull and bland nonetheless. I struggled to finish the first chapter as it was simply a poor setup to a story.

Characterization, after briefly running through a couple other chapters is quite minimal. They have no soul to them and thus I have absilutely no reason to care for them. If you remedy this later, character is something that must be established early as that will draw a person in or cause them to fall asleep at the screen. If two chapters in I can hardly distinguish your characters then that is a critical flaw.

So while it is not a bad piece...... as your posts demonstrate..... you have no style. it reads like you are just chugging away monotonously through various plot points and moving characters from point a to point b. Very much the flaw of many fantasy and science fiction novels you see on the shelves.

So enough of the holier than thou nonsense with writing alright. Your work is hardly infalible. Accept other view points a little better and make a point of teaching others how to write. You learn how to write only through examples and hearing critiques from your peers and audiences. You learn through reading and picking up on the notions of style of other writers before forming your own.

As far as my fingers cramping up to keep up with you... no my sir, it comes down to I simply make a point and end it. No need to go on for several screen lengths when I can simply be blunt and precise and get my word in without unnecessary elegance and padding to make it seem more important. That is also a lesson in writing.

You cannot spoon feed writing techniques. That is my point. Watch you avoid it.

[Ryuranger]

Originally posted by Claveler
Nice way to fuck a good thread, people... :rolleyes:

Amen. I was enjoying the debate until Rain started her PMS fit.

D was giving a tip. He was debating that tip and admitting when others made good points. Bash his points all you want, but don't bash him.

[Sym Bitch Rain Bot]

Um....... hey the first one to start was little D over there with his bringing in of friends names into this thread who had not partook in this thread. That was why I was even called into this thread. And well...... then I got to see just how pretentious he is.

And where does he accept anybody else's opinions on writing? He refutes everything mentioned by Stack as it did not fit his requisite.

Honestly though do you need to be told how to write from someone who thinks he is above you? That saddens me if you honestly think that by him telling you his laws that you will suddenly all become great writers. You learn more from simply trying with such and such story and posting it and having people read it in hopes of finding out what works and what does not.

Do you really enjoy him more or less telling you that he is better than you guys? Because that is the impression myself and several others are getting from this guy.

I bash the fact he is pretentious and is in no position to tell people how to improve their writing to be just like his own.

[Cmdr Crayfish]

Originally posted by D-Ranger

1) When you are trying to rebut someone's position, engaging in emotional invectives and personal attacks on that person will generally get you ignored by people who do this on on a high level. Lines like "no offense" or "no slight intended" translate nicely to "u SuX" and "U r sO RonG" in newbie speak and are taken as such by those of us who really do know the language of debate.

I live in the real world, where people become pissed off when some self-righteous prick starts telling people how they can and cannot write. Anyone who tells you that emotion is utterly divorced from discourse never read the Declaration of Independence -- to wit, the parts that sass talk old King George.

We are not Vulcans. Good communication goes hand in hand with strong emotion. For instance, your initial essay is you tossing a fit because you can't stand to see someone make a cultural allusion internal to a story. So again I ask you, how have you managed when Power Rangers does it? Indeed, HAS done it in almost five hundred episodes? Be they passing allusions to Austin Powers, the March of the Light Brigade, the fact that the Necronomicon exists within the PRU, multiple crossovers...

Do you READ anything? Do you watch ANY television, or see any movies? To claim allusion or reference is some pestilence inherent to fanfiction is just baffling to me. Every medium does this. Every form of media currently in existence does it. I mean, and I'm sincere about this... Do bugs on television programs jar you out of the illusion? Do commercials? Where do you draw the line on incursions from "reality?"


2) Never make assumptions about your opponent, their social position, their job, or their backgrounds. It will weaken your position because you are likely wrong. (Which, by the way, you are on every count in your assumptions about me. ^_^)
3) State your rebut clearly, directly, and logically. This is an exchange of ideas, not a shouting match. (Although given the nature of the internet, I can easily understand you not being used to opponents who actually do this.)

Love the zinger at the end of #3. Please see commandment #2, to wit --

"Never make assumptions about your oppnent, their social position, their job, or their background."

You donkey-fucking cockmaster. I don't jibe well to the condescending tone about my debating skills. At this point I've been smiting plebes in this fandom the longest of anyone still standing. You will know my name and tremble.

Actually, I don't write fanfiction. ^_^ At least not in the direct sense of "using an established property", I chose with my project on this board to write a Japanese-style superhero story using the conventions associated with such a story and mixing them with some other elements of my choosing. I write no crossovers, and use no established characters because I want people immersed in my world, not in someone elses. (Although by the nature of writing a "genre" story I admittedly am playing in a sandbox with other people who have walked this road many times before.)

Oh. I see now. You're one of those people who writes things like "Hyperkinetic Taskforce Dashman," which no one in the real fandom (or outside this board) read. Gotcha. I find that a bit comical then, as you're writing a derivative product yourself, based on a formula we could only be aware of from... Gasp... An outside source.

Then, as you do not write fanfiction, you have no place on this forum in telling others how they should write their own. I don't tell people how to write opera, because I am not a composer, nor do I have any particular expertise in the field. I had this crazy idea you were a PR fan, who wrote PR stories, thus putting you in a position of authority to tell other fans how they might benefit their own work in the future. I shant make that mistake again.


This does bring up a good point which I failed to cover, and should have when I think about it. :-/


You mean a corollary which topples the entire purpose of your essay. Then yes, you really needed to include that. You've come across through all of this as being greatly "high and mighty," and I'm replying in kind. That's how one handles hypocrites; you force their attitudes back in their face.


I have read some excellent pieces of fanfiction based around original characters in established settings and using original characters. On this board alone, check out almost anything done by RyuRanger to see this in action.


You... Think he's a GOOD writer? With the Forever Red series that's somehow an even more watered down JLA animated series? Hoooookay...

You know, PR fandom has had perhaps fifteen truly good writers in its entire existence, and from this board... Rob is it, for my money. Be grateful you even had Rob.


When you "name" something, you "invoke" it in the reader's consciousness. Quick question, did the line "I'm CooCoo for Coco Puffs!" flash through your head a when I mentioned them the first time? If so, then my point is proven because I just got you to stop reading that sentence for a moment by including an outside reference! ^_^


No. It did not. I don't hear jingles when I discuss products. I don't associate products with the music ad agencies try to juxtapose, either. I was mildly delighted Ween's Ocean Man is now being used by Honda (they need the money), and then went right back to enjoying whatever the hell it is the song is actually supposed to be about.


Yeah, I know, I have the same reaction!

Why? Because at that point, when they talk about "President Edison" or "The 263rd Admendment" the authors have included a...wait for it....outside reference. ^___^


No, actually -- those would be INTERNAL references. Because those are elements WHOLLY UNIQUE TO THE WORLD OF THAT STORY. Jesus Christ, get a clue. If I wrote a story that was totally divorced from the real world (as you suggest), then every allusion and reference to a nonexistent thing contained therein is wholly a product of the story itself. It is an outgrowth of the material, as "relevant" as each character I create out of whole clothe. Which is what you're advocating, nothing in the story beyond the sphere of the work itself.

If I'm not mentioning a TV show that actually exists, but rather one which exists internal to the narrative... I've done exactly what you've said. Ignoring that television exists, because for the purposes of this metaphor television's existence is an outside reference which "ruins the narrative." And in spite of that, I've mired the work down in superfluous exposition. See, that's the problem in all of this. I know what it is you're complaining about, but your communications skills are such that you can't convey it properly.

This is problematic. I can gauge what you're trying to say, because I've had to deal with mutants with poor writing comprehension for years. Most people cannot. More to the point, your tone brooks no further discussion of this subject. You might be able to cow some of the writers here, but I think you'll find some of us refusing to bend to you.

To paraphrase the Apostle Rufus, never decree rules. Rules are unchangeable and infallible. Try to have a good idea. You can change ideas.

It's one thing if a story is moving progressively off the map (the film Dave only works with President Bill Mitchell, as Kevin Kline looks like neither Bush Sr. or Clinton; and neither died of a stroke), and requires the application of a "title" above the actual person in the role. That requires a Pope to appear who is not John-Paul II. But for passing allusions that never go anywhere, I see no need for fictional analogues.

For instance, PR left the map years ago. There's no way for PR to even plausibly take place in a world akin to ours anymore, the premise alone violates it. Multiple time travel episodes confirm a wildly divergent history to our own. Whereas American Beauty... Why should I begin embellishing aspects of this larger world, while watching a tight little character piece? There's times you don't want to think about the outside world in a story, as it's simply beyond the scale of the piece being told. In that instance, doesn't it make the most SENSE to use a real person in the passing? It locks the story into an era without needless exposition and irrelevant digressions.

Continuity (and embellishment thereof) is not an entree. It's a sidedish. Nobody wants that much exposition shoved in their face, when one line does the job better. If it came up in the process of some other film that a character had attended the funeral of old family friend Lester Burnham, and in the story of this film it's made clear that there is a fictional president instead of GWB, that's one thing. One would presume both of these comments were relevant to the story, yet in the process do prove American Beauty's world was in fact much further removed from our own than previously thought.


Since I do have the high ground, why not use it? ^_^


I fail to see a moment where you've seized the moral high ground in all this. Instead I see you carefully pruning all pertinent parts of my reply to make yourself look better, and avoiding any questions I asked of you, as well as all instances where I showed you to be a giant hypocrite. That might work for most of these people. It doesn't work for me.


I can see that apparently you feel very passionate about this subject, which is why you found it hard to control yourself when faced with what you found an offensive work. However, try to remember that emotion is your enemy when you are debating points like this and will do you little good, all it does is dull your ability to attack your opponent's arguement.


Little man, I've been debating longer than you've been on this Earth. I need no advice from you. Indeed, I realize the more I see your replies just how anal you are about suspension of disbelief, and how this is reflected in your writing (which is dry and lifeless, with no sense of rising or falling action). I pity you.

You truly don't write, do you? Not in the actual definition of the word. You've never become so swept up in the material that the characters begin to take on a life inside of you that you'd never imagined. That something in your own narrative might reduce you to tears. That you might find yourself conflicted on having to bring a plot to fruition, knowing very well that a character is going to die for your actions. You're just... A typist of words. That's sad.

Jumping replies for a second, to maximize my devastating putdown.


Why should you bow to me if I can prove here and now I wrote bestsellers?


Come now, "Don." You and I both know you couldn't have written any best selling novels, at least not under the "real name" you've given here. You are a fanfic writer. You should be well aware the legalities your actions here raise. You'd be making yourself open to lawsuits over intellectual property theft. And even if you are a best selling novelist, you'd certainly have better things to do than write POWER RANGERS fanfic.

No, wait, I'm sorry -- you're above a mere fanfictionist. You're a Tokusatsu wigga, who writes ORIGINAL MATERIAL accordingly.

[TheOneRJS200]

Originally posted by Rain Flower
Yet you seem to not take into account writing is indeed an art where the rules can be played with hard and fast to create something euqally beautiful to one playing by your classical rules.

Well spoken.

[Claveler]

I love how you people overreact to anything.

Actually, I don't. I hate it. -_-

[ShadowRanger]

Originally posted by D-Ranger

A Minor Reference is when you say, refer to people or groups outside the story realm ("Wow, I wish we could call in the Justice League!" "Really? I'm a major Nine Inch Nails Fan too!"), when you sneak in an in-joke about your favorite TV show ("Well, we could take route 67, but it goes through Sunnydale and I heard it got wiped out last year in some disaster."), or name a charcter's pets after the characters from your favorite TV show. Minor stuff, usually one-shot references and put in there for fun, or whatever.

A Major Reference is when you take something wholesale and insert it into your story as an actual part of your story. For example, having your characters get EVA units, or team up with the Sailor Scouts, using a scene from a TV show which everyone knows without changing it, copying the plot of another TV or movie directly or any noteworthy outside thing which plays a part in the story but which is not actually a part of your "story-world" but which comes from someplace else.

Okay, we're clear on this? Hope so. :)

Now, the obvious question you're asking yourself right now is "so what?"

Basically, I'm here to tell you that outside references are BAD BAD BAD things, and explain why. (I should note now that fanfics are a special situation, and I'll deal with them afterwards accordingly.)



Okay, that's your opinion and you argue your case well. However I disagree with you on a few points. Firstly, I don't believe it comes down to minor reference / major reference, it comes to what is appropriate and what is not.

Not all outside references are bad and in the case of fanfiction it would be wrong to exclude them. I say that because fanfiction is different from other types of writing, it is not your own work and you are borrowing the characters and story from from someone else's work; it doesn't really matter if it's a Voyager fic or Nightmare on Elm Street, the original material does not belong to the author.

This in itself changes the rules to an extent. Shows, films, books, comics on which fanfictions are based vary to a great extent. Some have no outside references whatsoever, while others and here I will borrow an borrow an example, rely on them to provide a running joke. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is often heard declaring her Spider Sense is tingling. It's an ongoing joke in the series. Spike's reference to humans as Happy Meals was a one off reference but helped to bring humour in what was a very dramatic episode.

As such in a Buffy fanfic it would not be inapprpriate to repeat these references. Also Xander is a comic fan, so in the right circumstances hearing him repeating a quote from a comic and thus revealing his geeky side would also prove acceptable.

These references add to writing and reflect the style of the show. In my opinion it would be wrong to deliberately avoid those references used in the show, book, comic, film, etc upon which the fanfic is based just for the sake of avoiding outside references.

The same is true for Power Rangers. We've heard in the show Bulk and Skull discussing Star Wars, the odd refence to Batman and not forgetting that Beetleborgs exists there at least as a comic book. Actually, I guess since there has been crossovers between Power Rangers, Masked Rider, Beetleborgs, TMNT (and VR Troopers?) in one format or another they wouldn't be considered outside references anyway.

Now so far these refences have been small and I know you were arguing more for something on the scale of EVAs in Power Rangers, so I will move onto this subject. The problem with the argument that you've made as far as I'm concerned is that you've included a crossover as a major reference, and that should not be the case.

A crossover when done correctly can work. Earthsiege is an excellent example of how Power Rangers can be merged with another series. Deep Fathom Five demonstrates that the same can be accomplished with Stargate. There are other excellent series out there that successfully merge two or more series together, Harry Potter and Buffy work very well.

On the whole these series take more effort to write if they are to prove successful. It's important that there is some common ground between them and that you have a logical reason for the crossover to occur. For example if two shows are set in the same city then it would be possible for characters to run into each other, but equally important that they had a reason for the character(s) to be in that location.
Timelines are important too, Dragonball Z was set in a totally different time to Sailor Moon, you would not expect them to meet without some interference.
And of course there is the problem of writing one series without doing so at the expense of the other. I saw a Transformer/PR fanfic once where the only point was to argue that the Dinobots could beat the Dinozords; it was terrible. On ther other hand I saw a fanfiction where the Astro Rangers happened to crash land on Nebulos during the time of the Headmasters and Targetmasters. Subsequently they were drawn into a story where both Transformers and Rangers contributed to the overall story. Even so it could only be considered passable.

Personally I am of the opinion that some crossovers will work and certain crossovers should not occur but then it's once again a question of whether or not it is approriate to the story. But I did want to point out that a crossover between Gundam Wing and Power Rangers is different from the scenario you mention in your post.

Now to major references. I believe they can work. They need thought and over use can ruin a fanfic. But they have also been used successfully. Here I hold up Ryuranger's Ultimate PR and Ellen Brand's Personality Conflicts as an example.

Ryu's stories bring in aspects from Star Wars, various Animes, Spiderman, Sentai along with Metal Heroes. Any reference to sentai is an outside reference and isn't always guaranteed to work. One storyline he uses borrow heavily from the Fatal Fury movie. Another used the plotline of the Doctor Strange/ Spiderman crossover. In both cases the references were well chosen so they did not seem out of place within the series. (incidentally Ryu, I love this series).

Ellen Brand's series has many small references in it spread throughout the series. Small things like character's names, Rocky's quoting from literature, The broach worn by Lita Kino's secretary and even the odd line like: I feel like I'm in a bad episode of Sailor Moon. But there are also bigger references such as the ships used by the Rangers during a space pirate attack (I can't remember the name of that part, Crusty could probably point it out for you though) were based on the gunships from Last Starfighter. I could make a list of big and small references, but that's not the point. Despite using countless minor and major references, not to mention crossovers, Personality Conflicts remains one of if not the best AU fic on the web today.

There is of course a massive grey area here because there are also crossover references that hint that other series exist. For in PC there is a mention that North Valley suffers from frequent power problems. The mention of North Valley where the SHSSS reside and mentioning the power problems that were shown during that series hints that perhaps those characters exist in the author's universe. Another example would be to mention that there is a company in New York that specialises in catching ghosts. You're not actually crossing over with the series, but the reference is enough to make a reader familliar with that series think for a moment. And there is nothing wrong with that if done properly.

I keep coming back to your example of Gundams in a PR fic because in the example you use you are quite correct. However I think that even here it is more a reflection on the poor skill of the writer rather than the fact that references to GW cannot be used in PR and i wanted to make that clear.

That said: "Wing Zero dropped by to help the Rangers" is more like a crossover, where as "suddenly a machine Wes recognised from his early morning cartoons as Wing Zero dropped by to help the Rangers" is more of a reference to the actual cartoon existing in that universe. And saying: " A machine Wes thought resembled Wing Zero dropped by to help the Rangers" could be either crossover, a reference to the show or an implied reference to Wes having some prior knowledge of Gundams.

I see nothing wrong with having references to Gundams or Sailormoon in PR. That wouldn't mean I would use references to them or crossover with them.

Depending on how you feel about the use of sentai in pr fics also offers a way to include Sailormoon. In Kakuranger there were a group of females (punishment sisters) that resembled the sailor senshi to whom the white ranger belonged. If you carried it over and manipulated the story a bit, you could have the Sailor Scouts turn up from Stone Canyon looking for Aisha (I've seen Gingaman based in Stone Canyon so Sailor Scouts could live there). I'm not saying that should or would be done, but it is one of many way to do that sort of a crossover. Of course there's also the other reference: the atmosphere on the Moon was left over from a dynasty that had been destroyed one thousand years before.

There would be no harm in my mind to Billy touring a facility and passing by a construction bay where they were working on an EVA and having someone mention that it's a military application. And a post PRLG series that colonies like Terra Venture were causing problems with governments back on Earth could be used to explain a political situation in a story; it would even make a news item that one of the Rangers is watching.

In the end it comes down to the tastes of the author and the reader. In my writings I often mention the mysterious Sky Zords that Billy manged to come up with at short notice and make it clear that I am referring to the Airielbots. But this is more a plot device based around Billy and those responsible for Lightspeed effectively grave robbing rather than an attempt to bring transformers into the series. That just happens to be the way I choose to use it. However, I also know someone who wouldn't be able to do that without writing a full crossover involving ever tf character from generation one through to Energon.

As far as the author goes, it also varies. A former chancellor once said that there is no longer such a thing as an average family. Well by the same token there is no such thing as an average reader. Different people like different things, some people do like small references that give a nod to series x and character y. Others prefer to see big crossovers that involve the meeting of so many characters that a fic collapses under it own weight. Some people don't like any sort of reference to the outside world and like the feel of a fantasy world where they can escape for a while.

But to reiterate that I do believe that references can be used successfully regardless of whether they are major, minor or crossover. It is up to the writer to use them responsibly, not just because it seem cool and adjust as they write.

Okay, that's it. Sorry Rain if I rambled a bit.

[D-Ranger]

Originally posted by Cmdr Crayfish
I live in the real world, where people become pissed off when some self-righteous prick starts telling people how they can and cannot write. Anyone who tells you that emotion is utterly divorced from discourse never read the Declaration of Independence -- to wit, the parts that sass talk old King George.[B]

No, I was too busy laughing at the parts where half the original founders were trying to keep in slavery and make sure the people had no real power. While the other half were trying to make the government as powerless as possible to keep there from being another "king"

The declaration is a good read. I agree. ^_^

[B]
We are not Vulcans. Good communication goes hand in hand with strong emotion. For instance, your initial essay is you tossing a fit because you can't stand to see someone make a cultural allusion internal to a story. So again I ask you, how have you managed when Power Rangers does it? Indeed, HAS done it in almost five hundred episodes? Be they passing allusions to Austin Powers, the March of the Light Brigade, the fact that the Necronomicon exists within the PRU, multiple crossovers... [B]

You assume that I think PR is an example of brilliant and well concieved writing. I watch PR (well, watched since it's intolerable now) for the martial arts and the nifty mecha. If I want well written stuff I will watch Sorpranos, old Law and Order, MI5, Six Feet Under or something else which I know will provide me with wit and style.

I find PR a complete unimmersive experience, but then it's not supposed to be. It's pounded out kiddy crap which occasionally shows sparks of coolness. (very occasionally)

[B]
Oh. I see now. You're one of those people who writes things like "Hyperkinetic Taskforce Dashman," which no one in the real fandom (or outside this board) read. Gotcha. I find that a bit comical then, as you're writing a derivative product yourself, based on a formula we could only be aware of from... Gasp... An outside source.[B]

That I chose to write stories using an outside formula (while being AWARE I was doing it) was my own choice. If you will check, however, you will find that my stories are self-contained and require no knowledge of PR, Sentai, or anything SF/Toku to read. They are self contained and as such follow the "rules" which I stated above. I require the reader to be familar with nothing but the real world in order to enjoy them. (And pre-suppose a limited knowledge of that as well.)

[B]
Then, as you do not write fanfiction, you have no place on this forum in telling others how they should write their own. I don't tell people how to write opera, because I am not a composer, nor do I have any particular expertise in the field. I had this crazy idea you were a PR fan, who wrote PR stories, thus putting you in a position of authority to tell other fans how they might benefit their own work in the future. I shant make that mistake again.
[B]

My definition of "fanfiction" is fiction written using established settings and characters. I would agree completely I am writing derrivative fiction, however.

Last time I checked, Cmdr. Clueless, I didn't see your balls hanging out on the line in the form of your writing. So, why is it you tell me and others how to write in this thread? Isn't that a little hypocrtical by your own arguement? You and Rain both argue I have no right to say this because my own writing is weak (which I won't argue with), however, then you turn around and claim the high ground without ever having written yourselves. (At least nothing that seems to be around, feel free to direct me to some.)

At least I DO write, which gives me a hell of a lot more credentials than you two seem to have. You are just fanfic groupies who absorb others work and don't contribute.

Isn't it you who are in the wrong forum?

[B]
You mean a corollary which topples the entire purpose of your essay. Then yes, you really needed to include that. You've come across through all of this as being greatly "high and mighty," and I'm replying in kind. That's how one handles hypocrites; you force their attitudes back in their face.[B]

No, the point that overusing outside cultural references without thought and reason still stands.

[B]
You... Think he's a GOOD writer? With the Forever Red series that's somehow an even more watered down JLA animated series? Hoooookay...[B]

Ryuranger writes good entertaining yarns that kill a few hours here and there, and he's really good at what he does. He studied and worked hard at them, and again unlike you (or I at this stage) has worked to perfect his craft. His most recent Thunderstrike stuff is easily the best stuff on this board right now, which oddly enough is a semi-original work and not a piece of PR fanficness....hmmm.....


[B]
No, actually -- those would be INTERNAL references. Because those are elements WHOLLY UNIQUE TO THE WORLD OF THAT STORY. Jesus Christ, get a clue. If I wrote a story that was totally divorced from the real world (as you suggest), then every allusion and reference to a nonexistent thing contained therein is wholly a product of the story itself. It is an outgrowth of the material, as "relevant" as each character I create out of whole clothe. Which is what you're advocating, nothing in the story beyond the sphere of the work itself.

Actually, they're not. They're External references.

A baseline dramatic TV show bases itself in the real world and then begins engaging in divergences from that baseline reality. Everything you add to that reality (ours) is external to the baseline world but internal to the story itself.

A writer is guaged on their ability to simulate the external world within the internal world of the story. I am saying a writer should focus on maximizing their internal world and not be so concerned with bringing in outside elements from other realities beyond the baseline one.


Jumping replies for a second, to maximize my devastating putdown.

Dude. It took me an hour to stop laughing from reading this post and to actually reply to you.

I gotta say, thanks for coming out. But I'm not a pathetic little nerd who gets self-esteem from this, I have a sense of perspective, which I suggest you get as well.


[B]
Come now, "Don." You and I both know you couldn't have written any best selling novels, at least not under the "real name" you've given here. You are a fanfic writer. You should be well aware the legalities your actions here raise. You'd be making yourself open to lawsuits over intellectual property theft. And even if you are a best selling novelist, you'd certainly have better things to do than write POWER RANGERS fanfic.[B]

No of course I am not some best selling novelest.
Were I, I wouldn't be here. I am here to read and write a few fun derrivative stories. Last time I checked, I have broken no copywrites, and TOEI or DISNEY has no right to sue me, unlike pretty much everyone else in this place. That's part of the reason I chose to write "original" works instead of direct fanfiction.

[B]
No, wait, I'm sorry -- you're above a mere fanfictionist. You're a Tokusatsu wigga, who writes ORIGINAL MATERIAL accordingly.

Let me see.....Rain and you accuse me of looking down on the people in this forum....Yet I am not dissing them at all....Whereas you in the last two paragraphs have managed to degrade and downplay everyone here....And yet I am the one who is arrogant?

D

P.S. Don and I are very much different people. Do you think I would go to all the trouble to post an actual reply and then post another complete re-write like that just to insult you? Dude, you are seriously not worth that much of my time.

[D-Ranger]

>
> I live in the real world,

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA! dude; the real world isn't on the internet. I don't
care WHAT The Matrix says.

where people become pissed off when some
> self-righteous prick starts telling people how they can and cannot write.

> Anyone who tells you that emotion is utterly divorced from discourse
never
> read the Declaration of Independence -- to wit, the parts that sass talk
old
> King George.
>

......? Firstly; I don't remember a lot of sass in the Dec. Secondly;
wasn't HE being a self righteous prick when he replied?


> We are not Vulcans.

.... no matter how many pairs of the ears we own.

Good communication goes hand in hand with strong
> emotion. For instance, your initial essay is you tossing a fit because
you
> can't stand to see someone make a cultural allusion internal to a story.

Wasn't it ENTERTAINMENT allusions that bugged you? CULTURAL ones seemed
perfectly okay. Try to remember that "Nine Inch Nails" ISN'T the sum total
of all N. America has to offer.


So
> again I ask you, how have you managed when Power Rangers does it? Indeed,

> HAS done it in almost five hundred episodes? Be they passing allusions to

> Austin Powers, the March of the Light Brigade, the fact that the
> Necronomicon exists within the PRU, multiple crossovers...
>

... all aimed at selling toys to EIGHT YEAR OLD KIDS!!! It'd be
interesting to analyse one of these examples so as to find the motivation
behind it's inclusion.


> Do you READ anything? Do you watch ANY television, or see any movies? To
> claim allusion or reference is some pestilence inherent to fanfiction is
> just baffling to me. Every medium does this. Every form of media
currently
> in existence does it.

Yeah; but there's a difference between writing a metal song, and doing a
"cover" of "Ironman." Again; this clown can't seem to seperate a refrence
to something in the REAL real world from throwing in cool stuff from your
favourite Japanese cartoon world.


I mean, and I'm sincere about this... Do bugs on
> television programs jar you out of the illusion?

No; bugs in a program don't; because they're in all lielihood a part of
that world. Especially if it's supposed to be the REAL real world. Now;
seeing the Alien DOES jar me out of the illusion.

Do commercials?

Yes. That's sort of their point. See; ads AREN'T actually part of the
show. (Not any more.)

Where do
> you draw the line on incursions from "reality?"
>

See my previous statement.

>
> Love the zinger at the end of #3. Please see commandment #2, to wit --
>
> "Never make assumptions about your oppnent, their social position, their
> job, or their background."
>
> You donkey-fucking cockmaster.

Now THAT seems like an assumption. WORST; it's a line from South Park.
Now I've been hopelessly jarred out of this argument...

I don't jibe well to the condescending tone
> about my debating skills.

Yeah; but your debating skills ARE RIGHT OUT THERE IN THE OPEN!!! Notice
how examples and inferrences were drawn from WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SAID!!!

At this point I've been smiting plebes in this
> fandom the longest of anyone still standing.

Great. You're the top turd on the shitpile. Statements of this sort
really demonstrate your attitude; and greatest problem. You see this as a
battle, and react accordingly. You jumped all over Rob's essay 'cos it
challenged your "rule." A bright, young, ARTICULATE person like Rob; with
new ideas and a new perspective could threaten your position and knock you
from the pile.

*eeeek*

You will know my name and
> tremble.
>

No, I don't think so.


>
> Oh. I see now. You're one of those people who writes things like
> "Hyperkinetic Taskforce Dashman," which no one in the real fandom (or
> outside this board) read.

I dunno... seems like a lot of folks read his essay. SOMEONE must have
heard of him.

Gotcha. I find that a bit comical then, as you're
> writing a derivative product yourself, based on a formula we could only
be
> aware of from... Gasp... An outside source.
>

Yeah; but again, there's a difference between adopting the CONVENTIONS
of a GENRE, and throwing Mulder, Batman and a bunch of Daleks onto the
Enterprise.


> Then, as you do not write fanfiction, you have no place on this forum in
> telling others how they should write their own. I don't tell people how
to
> write opera, because I am not a composer,

... but I get the impression that you're the type that WOULD TRY
anyhoo...

nor do I have any particular
> expertise in the field. I had this crazy idea you were a PR fan, who
wrote
> PR stories, thus putting you in a position of authority to tell other
fans
> how they might benefit their own work in the future. I shant make that
> mistake again.
>

Yeah; but he WAS offering advice to improve writing. The very act of
considering Rob's points would force you to analyse your own perspective
and give you a new view of your own ideology. Dismissing it 'cos it's not
what you usually hear is the act of a small, simple, and childish mind.
Every line of the two retorts I have read is an attack; NOT a critique of
what Rob actually said.



> That's
> how one handles hypocrites; you force their attitudes back in their face.
>

Rob's essay really hurt this guy. "Hypocracies?" Strong talk from
something that in the REAL real world has little consequence. If it's that
irritating, why do you feel the need to respond and prolong the debate? Why
can NO-ONE on ANY internet group IGNORE stuff?

That's why I never bother with newsgroups and the like. (All I gotta do
is get Rob to stop sending stuff like this to me.)



>
> You... Think he's a GOOD writer? With the Forever Red series that's
somehow
> an even more watered down JLA animated series? Hoooookay...
>

Now; THIS would be a good spot for an ACTUAL debate. You've got a good
example of what Rob likes... now, start your retort with "I found Forever
Red to be derivative because..." add some examples... repeat as
neccessary... follow up with " Now; *insert title here* was MUCH better
because..." etc etc etc. THAT'S a debate. Instead, you gloss over this and
carry on with more of the same.

See; when Rob says stuff like this, he actually presents a position that
can be acceted or dismissed, with support for either readily providable.
Merely repeating "You're wrong" in various forms is NOT a real position.

> You know, PR fandom has had perhaps fifteen truly good writers in its
entire
> existence, and from this board... Rob is it, for my money. Be grateful
you
> even had Rob.
>

Okay; again you've lost me. Is this sarcasm...? Rob never referred to
HIMSELF as a brilliant writer, and didn't bring any of his own works into
this discussion at all. As a matter of fact he really didn't mention ANY
works at all, since he was more interested in discussing the nuts and bolts
of storywriting than any one particular story.

Say; why not pick apart one of Rob's stories? Or would you be afraid of
being the only person on Earth to have read one of them? See; THEN you can
provide examples for our points. It's that whole "debate" thing.



> No. It did not. I don't hear jingles when I discuss products. I don't
> associate products with the music ad agencies try to juxtapose, either.

Okay, maybe not ads; but you got REAL bent over Rob's Reznor example.


I
> was mildly delighted Ween's Ocean Man is now being used by Honda (they
need
> the money), and then went right back to enjoying whatever the hell it is
the
> song is actually supposed to be about.
>

.....? Okay. I'm not sure where that came from... your tone seems to
imply that YOU don't know what the song is about... and I'm not sure what
the song has to do with anything... but okay...

See; you could say "I'm glad when a band I like has a song used by some
big company 'cos it means they get a couple of bucks for their effort; and
then I go on enjoying the song irregardless." See how that keeps the
intent, but isn't muddied by the baggage associated with an outside
refrence. No copyright infringement either.


>
>
>
> No, actually -- those would be INTERNAL references. Because those are
> elements WHOLLY UNIQUE TO THE WORLD OF THAT STORY.

Hmmm.... he gotcha here Rob. One for the geek.

Jesus Christ, get a clue.

I'm willing to bet Jesus Christ already has one; being the son of God
and all....

And before we get a whole schload of religious debating going on here,
let me point out to you all that this was a FUCKING JOKE!!! I make those
sometimes.


> If I wrote a story that was totally divorced from the real world (as you
> suggest), then every allusion and reference to a nonexistent thing
contained
> therein is wholly a product of the story itself.

Buddy; you're doing it again. He's not advocating a story divorced from
the REAL world; just lightening up on the heaving of everything that makes
your little nerd heart pound into ONE STORY! REAL WORLD= CoCoa Puffs, bugs,
Ford Motors, etc. UNREAL world = Evangelion, Mulder, Zords.... Try not to
get these mixed up; it makes the Fundamentalists nervous.


It is an outgrowth of the
> material, as "relevant" as each character I create out of whole clothe.
> Which is what you're advocating, nothing in the story beyond the sphere
of
> the work itself.
>

Not "nothing" but more than throwing everything cool this year in.
"Creativity" means CREATING things. Writing about Mulder, Zords or other
stuff that ALREADY exists in one medium or another ISN'T creating. It's
PLAYING. And there's nothing wrong with that; but don't forget that there's
always more you can reach for than fifth generation Power Rangers swipes.

That's sorta Rob's point.

> If I'm not mentioning a TV show that actually exists, but rather one
which
> exists internal to the narrative... I've done exactly what you've said.
> Ignoring that television exists, because for the purposes of this
metaphor
> television's existence is an outside reference which "ruins the
narrative."

BUT you can add a lot to a setting just by a quick refrence to something
indigenous to that setting. Zik Zak, "I'll buy THAT for a dollar," the Pan
Galactic Gargle Blaster; all became fixtures within their respective
fandoms because they gave the audience a way to relate to the setting.
Here's an example of the sort of thing that the AUDIENCE partakes in, as it
would occur within the setting. Provides powerful empathy for the reader.

While quoting your favourite indie band MAY show how hip, cool and
totally obscure you are; it really doesn't add anything to the audience's
participation in your story.



> And in spite of that, I've mired the work down in superfluous exposition.

> See, that's the problem in all of this. I know what it is you're
complaining
> about, but your communications skills are such that you can't convey it
> properly.
>

You don't have a FUCKING CLUE what we've ben talking about! You've been
so busy telling YOURSELF how wrong Rob is that you haven't grasped ANY of
what he's been saying!!! You've adopted a position and jumped all over
anything SUSPECTED of differing from it so FAST you've MISSED THE ENTIRE
POINT!!! Apart from ONE SENTENCE you haven't actually replied to ANYTHING
Rob's ACTUALLY said!!! AND you've patted yourself on the back for doing it!


Man! People like this make me SICK!!! At leas